Your thought about Capped Bust Halves MS-64 True PQ for grade

Bear · May 9, 2003 1:17PM

The question at hand is the price right at 2800 -3600 for such choice , lustrous coins

with light origonal toning ? How do you find the availability compared to like Barber Halves?

lordmarcovan · May 9, 2003 1:20PM

Yeah. Sure. Sounds real tasty to me.

Gimme all of 'em!

Bear · May 9, 2003 1:37PM

ttt

barberlover · May 9, 2003 1:47PM

leaving out my own personal choice on this, i would say at local shows in my area, i see more ms 64 bust halves for sale than ms 64 barbers and very few ms 64 barbers that meet with my expectations, but when i due find them i can buy them for less than half the price of bust in the same grade by type. Les

tradedollarnut · May 9, 2003 2:10PM

Bear - your price range is a tad low for a truly choice coin.

Max · May 9, 2003 2:11PM

Barbers 64+ = like hen's teeth!

roadrunner · May 9, 2003 11:34PM

Problem is that all truly PQ 64+ halves end up in 65 holders someday. Just the way it is. What's left are pieces that can't possibly make it. And the % of such pieces increases all the time.

Frankly, I almost never ever see a PQ bust half in any grade. A truly choice 64 is basically worth close to sight unseen 65 money.
I would have no problem paying $4K for a 64+ coin but the odds of finding this coin before it turns into a $5K MS65 is getting very slim.
An original coin that's pretty is even more of a treasure. And then to find a bust half without striking weakness or rub in the hair curls or eagle's wingtips is 10x to 100x harder. Everybody lists PS 64+ pieces for sale, but few are that nice.

roadrunner

NumisEd · May 9, 2003 11:39PM

Bear, be careful of MS-64 bust halves. I have seen sooooo many bust halves in 64 or 65 holders that did not belong in the such a lofty holder. On the contrary, I have seen many 58, 61 and 62 bust halves that were just beautiful, but displayed just enough circulation marks to keep the grade down. I think that the grading services grade bust halves more by strength of strike and lack of bag marks, rather than by surface degradation. I have seen many MS-64 certified bust halves that had weak luster, yet clean fields.

Conclusion: I would rather buy 10 choice AU bust halves for $4000 than 1 mediocre MS-64 bust half.

Typetone · May 9, 2003 11:47PM

For you folks who know, is there a big NGC/PCGS price differential? I have a nice 1825 in NGC 64. Beautiful original toning, but with the striking weakness on the reverse described by roadrunner. Is that a $3,000 coin, or more like a $2,000 to $2,500 coin?

Greg

barberlover · May 9, 2003 11:50PM

Roadrunner, don't you think that there are many 64.7's that have been submitted 2 or 3 times for an upgrade and still reside in a 64 holder ?

Enough of the coins i've purchased over the last 3 years have that .7 look to them and if we occasionally find a .8 out there well thats gravey.

No, no one lets the point 9's go for cheep or usually doesn't let them go at all untill it upgrades but the point 7's are nice high end coins for the grade and can be had for reasonable prices.
I think my best coin is a .8 [66.8 that is] and i didn't pay the moon for it. Les

roadrunner · May 10, 2003 12:08AM

Typetone, I guess it depends on the coin. I bought what I felt was very solid orig and clean PCGS 64 at the FUN auction for $2200. Normally it seems dealers are asking $2400-2800 for typical ones.
You normally don't see the PCGS coins go for under $2000 but some of the lower end NGC ones have sold for several hundred less than that. I recently parted with 2 very pretty NGC 64's with the above mentioned rubbing and got in the $2200-2400 for them. There may be $200 or so difference between the 2 services on average but a nice 64+ coin in an NGC holder will still bring very strong money. But as stated earlier, way too many of the 64's have muted luster and excessive rubbing.

The bust half may be one of the coins that has most benefited from grade inflation over the past 12 years. Many old 62's are now "nice" 64's!!! 2 point jumps has become commonplace for old holdered coins. From July '98 to July '01 the NGC pops increased as follows for bust halves (64: up 29%, 65: up 39%, 66: up 80%). That would tend to show that nice 64's became scarcer compared to the higher grades.

roadrunner

roadrunner

BillJones · May 10, 2003 12:15AM

Many of the so-called "Mint State" Bust half dollars that I see are not Mint State at all. They are nice AUs with rub on the nose and sometimes in the hair. The few MS-64 I've seen were Mint State and attractive, but usual "Unc." grade is MS-63 or lower with problems I prviously noted. If you want a true Mint State coin you will have to pay for it, and that will mean paying more than "bid" or even "ask."

If anyone is looking for an MS-64 Barber Half, I've got a PCGS coin in stock that would fit the bill. Send me an email.

coinlieutenant · May 10, 2003 12:18AM

My mentor has told me that you should never pay more than greysheet bid for a 65 bust half, even if it is PQ and nice. They are very numerous!!! PQ ones are still somewhat hard to find but, when you go to resell they are a difficult bunch. Unless it is PQ of course. One of the problems is that most people only want one for a type set. The demand does not exceed the supply for the type collectors.

True bust half collectors collect by date and die variety withing dates. They do not want MS65 coins. They want XF/AU examples. That is why, if you are patient, you can get a PQ coin in 65 for close to greysheet bid. In fact there is one on ebay right now in a guys ebay store. I will try and find it for you.

John

MacCoin · May 10, 2003 12:33AM

my thoughts are your price is for MS65s I like the MS65 Cap Bust I love the Draped in MS60 for the same money.

than I wake up to really and admire my 33 vf cap bust wishing for a draped bust half

Bustman · May 10, 2003 12:44AM

<< <i>My mentor has told me that you should never pay more than greysheet bid for a 65 bust half, even if it is PQ and nice.

Truly nice, pq bust halves with exceptional eye appeal can not be had at grey sheet. Not in todays market.
And although there are a lot of bust halves in 65 holders, very few belong there.

roadrunner · May 10, 2003 1:01AM

I've been looking for one nice, all there, well struck, MS 65 bust half
for years and have yet to find it at something even close to grey sheet. Dipped and retoned coins do not fit the bill. It may have to reside in a 66 holder now, but frankly, none of the 66's have yet met my tastes for strike, color, luster, and appeal. Bustman is right, they just aren't out there. What makes 65 and 66 today is so far from the 1987-1988 standards, it's not even funny. Many or even most of today's 66's would not have made 65 back in 1988.

Barberlover, our standards as to what a 64.7 or 64.8 is may not be the same. My 64.7 may in fact be most dealer's MS 65.0 or 65.2.
It really doesn't matter though. I'll hold out until I find that one that is a keeper to me eye. I hadn't seen a MS 65 (or even a 64 for that matter) seated dollar that I liked since the early 1990's. And back then they were over $40,000. Legend finally showed me the first one I felt was a no question orig gem last year. I bought it. I had been casually looking for one for over 10 years. Sometimes it takes time.

roadrunner

coinlieutenant · May 10, 2003 1:59AM

Bustman,

Would have to disagree with the statement that they cannot be had at greysheet not in todays market. If you are patient they can. I do agree that many that are in the holders should not be but choice coins can be found at reasaonable levels.

Just my opinion. I sent Bear a link to a nice one at greysheet just an hour ago. Granted, I dont know what the quality of it is technically, but the strike is good and the eye appeal is there. It is at least a good place to start.

John

BillJones · May 10, 2003 2:19AM

My mentor has told me that you should never pay more than greysheet bid for a 65 bust half, even if it is PQ and nice.

Mentors?

I’ve had my fill of mentors. Unless they are can supply you with coins at the cheap prices that they claim you should be paying, they are nothing more than kibitzers who will lead you to pass up on deals you should have made.

I’m with Bushman. Really attractive, fully struck PQ Bust haves in any Mint State grade are worth “bid” or more. I’ve sold full MS-63 pieces that were very attractively toned, but not perfectly struck to other dealers at full bid and more and had those dealers coming back asking for more.

Those who can supply you with REAL coins at the cheap prices, that they believe you should be paying, make their point. Those who run their mouths but can’t come up with anything are just full of it.

barberlover · May 10, 2003 2:31AM

bill, i just tried to pm you using bill jones and it wouldn't go thru. is your pm fuction open, or did i type in the wrong thing? les

BillJones · May 10, 2003 2:40AM

Yes, my PM function is working. Someone else just sent me a message. Try the "lock spot" in the function area next to the eye glasses on this message.

IrishMike · May 10, 2003 2:53AM

Great perspective bustman and roadrunner. Add me to the list of those looking for a 64 or 65 with great original lustre. One you don't have to remortgage the mobe for.

Bear · May 10, 2003 4:06AM

I never thought this thread would get all of the great and informative replys.

Im starting to look smarter already. Thanks to all. The little bear

coinlieutenant · May 10, 2003 5:31AM

Bill,

Didnt think that my post would garner such a reaction. I never said that they werent WORTH over greysheet bid, I just said that if you are patient and you have an eye for coins, they can be had at greysheet bid. That's ALL.

I can understand why you would not want collectors to know that they can be had at these prices because you are a dealer!!

And the reason that I know that they can be had is that dealers get them all the time at greysheet bid or less. The market will support the premium prices for premium coins and many collectors will pay retail for those coins. However, dont try and hoodwink collectors into thinking that the wholesale market is just for dealers. So once again, with patience and time, going to enough shows, developing your eye, searching and pecking at small auctions and such, a good coin can be found for greysheet bid in the bust half dollar series. The greysheet is right on the money with alot of the market. I just think that on bust half dollars, the greysheet prices represent retail closer than wholesale. Perhaps that is because so many bust halves ARE overgraded.

Now, if you are talking about a super monster gem of a coin in a PCGS 65 holder that has claims to 66, with dripping luster through gorgeous toning, that is acutally a technical mint state coin instead of the rubbed coins that dominate the market............ then yeah, pay the premium that it is worth.

Is that a better post than my first??

John

Bustman · May 10, 2003 5:36AM

[Now, if you are talking about a super monster gem of a coin in a PCGS 65 holder that has claims to 66, with dripping luster through gorgeous toning, that is acutally a technical mint state coin instead of the rubbed coins that dominate the market............ then yeah, pay the premium that it is worth.

John,
I think thats what all of us have been saying.

coinlieutenant · May 10, 2003 5:48AM

So what your saying is, monster coins like the one you sold me kind of premium................ I got you now....

Your thought about Capped Bust Halves MS-64 True PQ for grade

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