eBay Sellers who just don't get it!!
keets
Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just went over to eBay to check some listings and ran across a coin that interested me so i went to the sellers listing page. They have 85 items "up for auction" with anywhere between 20 hours and 9 days remaining. A staggering 8 have bids!! The funny thing is that almost every item has an opening bid close to sheet.
I find this to be a very annoying and common occurrence at that venue----sellers want to sell instead of place in auction. While many of the listings may be for quality coins, I absolutely refuse to start at the sheet price in an auction. Am I alone in this?? And while I'm at it, the seller had a listing for an original 1954 Proof Set and then pictures one repackaged in those cute poly bags!!
Somebody please turn off the siren, it's hurting my ears!!
Al H.
I find this to be a very annoying and common occurrence at that venue----sellers want to sell instead of place in auction. While many of the listings may be for quality coins, I absolutely refuse to start at the sheet price in an auction. Am I alone in this?? And while I'm at it, the seller had a listing for an original 1954 Proof Set and then pictures one repackaged in those cute poly bags!!
Somebody please turn off the siren, it's hurting my ears!!
Al H.
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Comments
I can only "assume" that we don't see the whole picture because those listing fees have to add up.
We can never really know what objectives these sellers are trying to reach with their auctions, but it certainly cannot be high percentage of sales.
Joe.
I agree tho, if you are going to auction the item, then AUCTION it!!!
Total Copper Nutcase - African, British Ships, Channel Islands!!!
'Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup'
For example, look at wcarner. He's been listing his stuff way over retail for a long time. Nobody with a clue would bid on it, and for the most part, that's the way it happens. Occasionally, he gets some bids. I suppose, in his mind, his overpricing strategy works, despite hundreds of listings week after week with no bids. It's a free country, sort of!
Face value. no reserve.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
If it is a dealer that buys items at roughly bid and puts a starting price that is equal to greysheet ask then what is wrong with that? If you sell some of your personal coins and put them with a no reserve then you are gambling. Dealers cannot gamble everytime.
If I buy a coin at $500 and let's say that is bid on the coin (non toned Morgan for example) and put the starting price as the greysheet ask then there is just enough room to squeeze out maybe 5% profit after it is all said and done IF I AM LUCKY!
if you have a $25 item and start it with no reserve then there is a small risk in losing your money. Try a $500 coin with no reserve sometime, you will see what I mean.
Dealers are in business to make money, plain and simple
I don't see what's wrong with this. Some sellers may put overgraded junk up at full Gray Sheet, and others may put up coins that would be a bargain at twice Gray Sheet. If the buyer can tell the difference, what's the problem?
For example, look at wcarner. He's been listing his stuff way over retail for a long time. Nobody with a clue would bid on it, and for the most part, that's the way it happens. Occasionally, he gets some bids. I suppose, in his mind, his overpricing strategy works, despite hundreds of listings week after week with no bids.
Wynn Carner has some great coins. I don't think all of his coins are worth his asking price to me, he has some that are definitely worth the PQ price tags.
Are we so used to being able to steal coins on eBay that we're not willing to pay wholesale prices any more? Gray Sheet is, after all, wholesale prices for sight-seen trading. I pity those who pass up PQ coins at Gray Sheet levels and who instead buy junk at Blue Sheet or less. Maybe some are fortunate enough to find PQ coins at Blue Sheet prices, but I'm not one of them (except on rare occasions). And if we're not willing to buy coins are fair wholesale levels, what will happen to the retail coin business?
Obscurum per obscurius
personally, i don't see any problem with a seller opening the bidding on a nice coin at greysheet bid. you may be the only bidder and end up a nice coin at or below wholesale prices. wow!
it seems reasonable to have a reserve price if you don't have enough confidence in your listing reaching a hoped for level, just for protection. i'm certainly not advocating a seller losing money for my sake. but again, if you've decided to sell an item at auction, why not let it sell??
listing at greysheet levels could be done at an eBay store. like the saying says, the proof is in the pudding. sellers are certainly free to start auctions at any level. but if that strategy is constantly proven wrong, and make no mistake about it, it is constantly proven wrong, why continue it?
stubbornness seen as an asset, perhaps, or just ignorant sellers?? which do you think. both maybe.
al h.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
I was bidding on a 44-S Walker in MS 64 on eBay....quickly got bid up to several dollars over retail Trends. Found a better looking coin (at least in the pictures) at David Lawrence...gross cost to me will be several dollars less than if I stayed in the eBay hunt, and I'm betting I'll get better customer service.
I will not pay retail on an eBay auction unless it's an absolute must have...and haven't found that yet....
The smaller portion are sellers, collectors or whomever who are letting the market dictate the coins value via an auction to move the coin for whatever personal reasons they have. Of those maybe 3-5% of sellers, auction off quality coins as a true auction letting the market winds set the price.
It feels very good to be one of those 3-5%
Tyler
I've also talked to a couple people who use EBay as an advertising venue. If they sell a few coins at high levels, then that's fine, but their goal is to advertise their name, merchandise and try to build clientele. I do find it unusual to pay for listing fees for unsold auctions, as I'm not one to employ this practice.
btw, shiro makes some darn good points about most buyers who wouldn't know a good deal on a nice good at above sheet prices from a bad coin at way below the sheet. many buyers just know the sheet for prices but actually they don't know sheet about value
If Ebay hid the reserve feature, and the bidders didn't know if they have been outbid, or just haven't met the reserve, what would the difference be? That would be the same scenario as bidding at one of the larger auction houses. Tons of that stuff has reserves, but the bidder just isn't aware if they are bidding against another bidder (most likely), or flirting with a reserve.
As a seller, I'd like to see Ebay go this route. Charge me what you wish, but hide the reserve icons.
What happens if you find a $1 start auction 4 days into the auction, and the bidding has reached Greysheet levels? What then? Because the bidding has reached that point, you won't bid anymore?
I can understand the desire for "true" auctions but for certain coins, that listing method just doesn't work (for the seller). I recently started a nicely toned Walker at $1, and it sold ($585?)for under Bluesheet($650)!!!!!! That's ridiculous, and as a seller, I'm not willing to take that type of beating on a daily basis
I know this can be a volatile topic, but you have to look at it from both sides. Sure, every buyer wants a "deal", and every seller would love to make huge profits on every item sold.
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
I think some kind of "reserve" icon should be placed on the auction list screen. I hate wasting even the 5 seconds opening a reserve auction and closing it immediately. They should also let you filter out reserve auctions from your searches.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Btw, I know of at least one board member who regularly starts his auctions around double book value. I've also rarely (actually never) seen his auctions with any bids.
I think you need to step back for a moment and look at things from a seller's perspective. I had ten coins end last Sunday night on eBay, several of which ended up at well under 50% of my cost, and I buy at wholesale. It is the last time I will ever start a coin at $9.95 and no reserve.
The bottom line is most of the time you get what you pay for. Most coins end up selling under sheet for a reason.
I am just taking that stance to make a point. I am glad that coin dealers often quote me CDN bid prices for their coins.....can't complain about that. I just wish that someone would explain to me why collectors live by the CDN. You can even see 10 year old kids walking around with a copy of the Greysheet at shows! Geez.
i don't understand why so many of you think you deserve to have it both ways
like numised said, greysheet is for DEALER TO DEALER, SIGHT SEEN
why not buy coins you LIKE, rather than coins that are a "good deal" (ie that you can "make $" on)
K S
What are these radical new doctrines dorkkarl is spreading?!
Obscurum per obscurius
i like to see true market auctions. face with no reserve is a market sale.
What is a dealer? Is a dealer some magical entity that defies the laws of economics? Was he handed a discount card by the almighty himself that allows him to buy at less than market?
A dealer is only defined by his methods of business. If he buys in huge quantity he can benefit from economies of scale. He'll have the capital to tie up while looking for the right buyer that collectors may not. He may have contacts that allow him to view a great number of potential coins. He'll have the knowledge to identify whether a coin will net a profit, whether there's a market for it, and how to market it etc.
There's no holy membership card that dealers are born with allowing them to circumvent natural market forces. Calling oneself a "dealer" does not give you special rights in negotiation. If it does, then why doesn't every collector just call himself a dealer and reap the rewards?
In answer to your question, all prices guides are coin industry tools to make the uninformed think that he should be paying more for his coins than they would sell for at auction. A coin is worth what it would sell for in a true auction, not what it says on a piece of paper somewhere.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
<< <i>but are hard pressed to even consider doing the same the Ebay Seller (who is more likely to be a collector). >>
That one I don't agree with. Any self respecting collector wouldn't use some of the bull "hockey" descriptors in their auctions to describe their coins like some of the real winners on eBay.
I've done some really good deals with folks on this board thru the BST board and other venues...jbsteven, BAJJERFAN, Sarasota Frank come to mind immediately, although there have been others. If someone I know or whom I have dealt with before and has given me great service throws up an eBay auction for something I like, then I may be more liberal in my bidding and offers. But for some guy anonymous to me....who wants to charge me $6.00 S/H to pay for his valuable time standing in the post office line to buy $1.50 worth of postage...well to be blunt I don't care how much YOU make on the deal, I want TOP quality at the LOWEST BARE BONES price. If we develop a good working relationship, I think we'll both be very satisfied in future dealings.
It's all about building relationships in this hobby...how many threads and posts have been put out on that. If you're some anonymous eBay seller 3000 miles away from me, why should I possibly worry about YOUR bottom line until you've proven yourself to me and we start building that mutually supportive relationship.
Once eBay and PAYPAL and the post office all take their share of the sale, there is not much money left to buy more coins to sell.
So maybe some eBay buyers need to get it as well - if you are buying gold at $300/oz it is probably 10 times worse to be buying 10 ounces at $300/oz because you will not get anything.
Most other major coin auction sites have "hidden reserves" where the seller bids until they feel comfortable selling the item - seems to be a common practice.
How is having a $500 reserve different than starting at $500 for a $500 coin (sure it is nice if the seller starts it at $1 and you can 'win' it for $300 - but not for the seller).
my argument is that if it sells for $300, it's value is $300. anyone can arbitrarily assign a value to something and say that's what it's worth, but it's true value is what it will sell for.
of course anyone can attempt to sell anything for whatever they choose to sell it for.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
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listings may be for quality coins, I absolutely refuse to start at the sheet price in an auction. Am I alone in this?? "
No, cointoast and Jim007 feel just like you do. So that makes three of you.
Actually, what God is trying to do is increase your ability to withstand stress. You should keep going to auctions like the aformentioned and
eventually you will be able to manage two businesses, three children, 28 employees and a snake and then soon you will be able to do it on 5 hours of sleep per night.
Not long ago I bought an 1880-s Morgan dollar in an old pcgs rattler which had a bid starting at 100.00. The coin was listed as an ms63 toned. The coin had beautiful full reverse toning in green, gold, and magenta and was also prooflike under the toning. I was the only one who bid on the thing and I could sell it today at any major coin show for 250.00 if I wanted to do so. Of course that doesnt happen often but it does happen.
.........two very good examples of how grey sheet prices are arrived at using an auction sale as data to fix the prices. if not for examples such as these the prices would remain stagnant.
aside to NumisEd and dorkkarl
if you guys think that only dealers are allowed to use the grey sheet for pricing and that it hasn't developed as a standard guide, you're both rather naive. and just to set things straight, i'm not a dealer by any stretch. i personally find the rantings about my right to buy coins based on the grey sheet as ludicrous. i reference the sheet to know what a dealer is going to charge me just as i reference a blue-book value when looking at used cars. no difference.
jeez, i can't believe i actually took time to respond to that assinine assertion, it is that ridiculous. lets play "AS IF"-------as if i should go to purchase a coin using a redbook value that was wrong 8 months ago when it was published and trust the dealer to quote me a fair price. AS IF!!!! hey, maybe we should play NOT!!!!!!!!!!!
next stupid comment please.
al h.
take two steps and call me in the morning!!!
al h.
Commonly traded coins can be followed with sheet numbers (Morgans?) because they trade hands so often that a reasonable number can be established for them between the buyer and seller. Less commonly traded coins are going to have a distinct swing as far as pricing goes. I believe you know all this though
Personally, what I have found is that GENERALLY, items started at $1 or so, GENERALLY, don't realize top dollar. That's for the stuff I'm listing. I'm sure others will have different results. I'll usually list Morgans at $9, because that market is more "set" than say half dimes. If you want to cry as a seller, go and purchase a three cent silver in ms/64 or 5 (common date), and list it on Ebay at $1. You'll lose your shirt, guaranteed. Unless of course you ripped the coin from a little old lady
LSCC#1864
Ebay Stuff
hey darin
here's where we probably part ways by agreeing to disagree. i'd say whatever market, venue or whatever where a coin is sold is where/what determines it's value. the reason sellers use eBay is because it's a very viable and open market that reaches such a large number of people. with your 3-cent piece, i'd assume collectors look there for them. maybe i'm wrong. but the fact that sellers would list a specific coin at a specific venue tells me that it's because they believe it to be the best/easiest way to sell for the highest amount of money, or some combination of those reasons. anything i wish to sell can find a higher sale price somewhere and sometime. the only stat that really counts, though, is the chosen time and the high price.
when they wade through prices at The XYZ Coin Price Guide they don't make exception for what site something sells at, or do they??
bottom line, and i'm a bottom line guy at times, i'm not really argueing in this thread about whether or not real prices are determined at eBay. in fact, your response sort of helps my case. if a seller has a set price he wants for a coin, he isn't really placing it in auction. and when he does that over-and-over-and-over again it seems rather pointless. regarding your Walker, though i can sympathize with you somewhat about taking a hit, i would ask why you didn't sell it at a show? to the cheapest dealer at $650 or a smarter one for more than that? my answer would be because you misjudged the market value of the coin or you misjudged the market you chose to sell it in.
as i said in my earlier post, your lower sale price will enter the data bank and reflect a downward trend in pricing for that date/grade------maybe, maybe not. isn't that how the sheets work? what goes up comes down, correct?
al h.