FB Roosevelt Weightings.....Inquiring Minds Want to Know
Colorfulcoins
Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭
Anybody have any idea when these will be available? Who actually decides what the FB weighting will be? Who knows.......?
Craig
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
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Wondercoin
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Wondercoin
What brought this question to light was that NGC has updated their weighting system for FT designation already........so I was curious as to the promptness of getting a deliverable from PCGS......after all, there are FB coins and if the "fat wallets" as you call them are going to spend, they're going to want some indication of value - and that's what the weighting does (in a way).
Have any of the Rosy collectors looked at the NGC FT weightings?
I'd be curious to hear some feedback from over here......its a different system but it preserve the value of MS68 coins. This is different than what PCGS has done in the past with Merc's - for example, the pop of the PCGS 39S in MS67 is 20 pieces and its worth the same (registry-wise) as a MS64FB with a pop of over 100 and less than the MS65FB with a pop over 100. This is essentially the same issue that has been voiced over and over and over again on these boards about MS68 non bands Rosy's being worth less than MS67FB coins of the same date. The NGC system does seem to address this potential inequality......will PCGS also buy into this philosophy??????? Inquiring minds want to know........ <g>
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
When PCGS made their announcement about Full Bands designation they said
<< <i>According to B.J. Searls, PCGS Set Registry Director, "It will be the same bonus structure we use for Full Bell Line Franklin half-dollars and Full Band Mercury dimes." >>
I understood that the lower band needed to be split but it also must be rounded. Just the 7 coins I sent in made me a believer that PCGS is going to be tough (2 out of 6)on the clads. I am happy my 1948-S ms67 came back "FB"
Have a great evening,
Ken
My Washington Type B/C Set
But its VERY clear from previous posts from MANY MANY collectors that the scheme that PCGS is likely to use will inflate the point value of MS67FB coins to greater than that of MS68 non band coins..........and today, that's a huge problem given some of the tougher MS67FB coins may be $500-800 coins while MS68 are $3500-7000 coins! As the owner of a MS68 non band coin - that stings pretty bad. For instance, if PCGS awards 1 point (and the Merc default seems to be 2 points) to a FB coin, it creates just the situation I've noted above. Imagine if it were 2 points, then a $15 PCGS MS66FB is worth Registry point wise what a MS68non band coin is worth. There are literally hundreds of say, 1953D MS66FB coins and yet there are NO 1953D MS68's......equality - absolutely NOT.
Check out the NGC weighting - a 1953D MS67FB is worth close to what a MS68 non band is worth. This incents the collector to get FB designation (big pop over same numerical grade w/o FB) but protects the relative rarity (in comparison) on the MS68 coins.
I like the FB designation, I just am afraid of what its going to due to relatively rare MS68 NB coins.
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Craig: First off, perhaps the value of a NB MS68 might be just fine to equal the value of a 67FB - crazy you ask? Well, consider this - I just slabbed a MONSTER TONED 1949(p) ROOSIE in PCGS-MS67FB. I mean monster toned for that date. And, I just heard a dull, off-white, piece just sold for absolutely "stupid" money in 67FB. So, I guess my current asking price (unpublished) on my 67FB coin is $5,000. Of course, no one is going to pay me $5,000 now for the coin, nor will I offer my coin for sale publicly right now as no one will pay the price I want anyway. BUT, IF PCGS WEIGHS THE COINS SO THAT GREAT RARITY MS68 COINS ARE WORTH LESS REGISTRY POINTS THAN MANY COMMON MS67FB PIECES, OR EVEN MS66FB "DIME A DOZEN COINS", I BELIEVE IT MAY RESULT IN SET BUILDERS PAYING NEVER BEFORE HEARD OF PRICES FOR SOME OF THE 67FB COINS AND THE GAP BETWEEN MS68 NB AND NEAT 67FB COINS WILL BE CLOSING. And, yes, $5,000 for a 1949(p) MS67FB dime is insanity, but, so is $39,000 for a 1963 proof Lincoln cent IMHO.
The fat wallets will be buying Roosies for a while and since my more than fair offer for a coin earlier this week (I believe more than I ever paid before for the date by a landslide) was trumped by a wild buy price from someone else (likely a board member reading this now), I have little doubt prices will be high for a while as folks scramble for a top FB set.
Wondercoin
Craig, I don't really know what your trying to say here. I interpret your above comment to say that NGC weights the 53D MS67FT
with about the same amount of points as a MS68 non FT. I just checked the NGC weighting for the 53D and show that an MS68
non FT gets almost 3X the points as an MS67FT. This is how you preserve the value of a rare low pop MS68 over a fairly common
date MS67FT.
I don't know how PCGS is going to address this problem. This is an area in the PCGS registry that needs attention.
onlyroosies
For the folks holding the MS68 coins, the situation is magnified. Consider that the MS68 FB coins are now going to be even more rare, the owners of those should see a reasonably high bump in their value. However, for the poor souls who own MS68 No Bands coins, it is likely their value has been significantly diminished. If I owned one of these, I would try and sell is last week.
If you look at the Merc series, the FB coins trade signifiacanly above No Bands coins. For example, a very common 1939 MS68 can be had for about $200 in No Bands. Change that to FB and you are into about a $2000 (from memory, not researched) coin. It could be a little less, but the difference is one of large magnitude.
Bottom line, the Roosie series has changed forever and the prices will find their new levels in the next couple of years as the populations sort themselves out. Overall I think the FB designation will be good for the series, but at a transitional cost to some.
Deepcoin, I don't believe the mercs can be used as a just comparison here. The 39P you mentioned above in MS68 has a pop of 37.
There isn't 37 MS68's in the entire Roosie series nor do I believe the Roosie MS68 pops will ever even come close to the merc pops.
I just can't fathom a 2 pop MS68 non FB Roosie being valued the same or less than it's counter part in MS67FB. Thats like saying that
just last week the market valued an MS68 Roosie at 5K and this week its valued at $500 because it failed to get the FB designation.
I would still take the MS68 over the MS67FB any day. I think the market is putting to much value on the MS67FB Roosies and that
will adjust downward over the next couple years as the pops show there true rarity.
I think a 39 MS68FB merc's value is closer to 8K then 2K. Now consider the ratio between the MS68FB & MS68 value.
onlyroosies
What I was trying to say is that this new designation will change the market. My thought is there may no be only one MS68FB (say the other is an MS68 No Bands coin) that suddenly becomes a pop 1/0 coin and is worth?? 9000? I dont know how much. But the MS68 No Bands will be less desirable and over time its value will be degraded. The registry will contribute to this.
However, let me say this is all conjecture on my part. In the Merc series the No Bands coins are pretty much coins of last resort for folks who cannot afford a FB coin. Will the Roosie series evolve this way, I dont know, I am just guessing.
Think of it this way, if the Roosies get an influx of new deep pocket collectors, will most of them ONLY collect FB coins? That is the present situation in the Merc series. What would you collect if you were new to the series? In my mind the FB designation relegates the No Bands coins to minor league status. The only place it really is damaging is at the highest levels.
I dont think that it is right that the MS68 No Bands Roosies may get the short end of the deal in the registry, but I is my guess that is what will happen.
I can appreciate your commentary about the drive of some collectors to build a full FT set of the highest grade coins........fortunately, I don't count myself in that rather exclusive (today) group. A "dull, off-white" coin isn't a coin for me, bands or otherwise......but to some, as you note, its a tremendous accomplishment and a worthy addition to their set no doubt. That's one of the nice things IMHO about collecting, the collector gets to chose what they want to collect and what they want to achieve. I collect Blue Roosevelt dimes. There's no Registry set for Blue dimes...and that doesn't bother me. I don't care if the blue dime I own has Full Bands or Full Torch or no torch/bands....just as long as its Blue, the more vivid and brighter, the better. My Blue set is currently listed on the NGC Registry under the name "Blues Brothers" - its there because I don't care if the coin is in a NGC or PCGS holder........its about the color.
Now, since I can talk out of both sides of my mouth, I will eagerly watch the feeding frenzie of the fat wallets as they consume choice and desirable coins.......and the dealers prosper as a result (a point you have made in previous threads, I recall). Personally, I'd really like to see someone give you $5k for your coin........but I'd be happiest just seeing the coin myself as I'd appreciate the "monster toning" many times more than the distinct little lines on the reverse (LoL). I, for one, understand just how difficult it is to find a monster 49P, mine is certainly not a monster coin and I've yet to see a monster 49P PCGS MS67, NGC MS67 or 68 (no offense to others that may have these coins, just my opinion).......so its worth beaucoup bucks for that alone, in my book..........any chance of posting a picture so I (and undoubtly others) can salivate a bit? Would also love to see the coin at LB.......in fact, seeing your PL dimes has resulted in me now looking for PL dimes also - and have actually found a few!
Mitch, let me ask you a question as someone that's looked for FB/FT coins for years - do you see the 49P or the 49S being a more difficult FB coin? Ceratinly the 49P MS67 pop is less than half the 49S, but what about bands? Both currently show pop 2 on the report (or they did yesterday)........ I'm just a novice and I listen and learn when the master speaks.........<g>
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
Wondercoin
Is it possible these few Isolated cases is just one collector, or even someone speculating. I had a PCGS 48D MS67FB gold rim toned
dime on eBay for quite a while for $240 with no takers. Maybe we're all jumping the gun a little here. Just because we've heard of
a 49P 67FB selling for more then $650 doesn't mean the big wallets have opened up. Maybe this series isn't going to attract any
big players and we're it. Hummm theres a thought!
onlyroosies
I've heard more than that
Wondercoin
I doubt either of us would remember what was said, at least I wouldn't. Place & Time
If Craig is not drinking the Jack and Coke, he can't come.
Wondercoin
If I had it my way, stupidity would be painful!
"The fat wallets will be buying Roosies for a while and since my more than fair offer for a coin earlier this week (I believe more than I ever paid before for the date by a landslide) was trumped by a wild buy price from someone else (likely a board member reading this now), I have little doubt prices will be high for a while as folks scramble for a top FB set."
Mitch, I'm very disappointed in your behavior and commentary regarding the sale of my PCGS MS67FB 1949-P Roosevelt dime. To begin with you have absolutely no inkling of what "absolutely stupid money" or a "wild buy price from someone else" is in terms of actual dollars and cents -- although you asked me earlier today to disclose the selling price to you (which I declined to do). Moreover, I'm surprised that YOU offered me $650 for such an inferior coin and even more astonished that you'd offer this dog to one of YOUR valued clients and add a mark-up to it. Speaking of mark-up how much would you have added, 10%... 15%... 20%, what??? I have a sneaking suspicion that you would be whistling an entirely different tune about this particular coin had YOU been involved in the actual sale. The fact is, if the 1949-P dime was as uninspiring as you imply -- why would you be willing to pay $650 for it in the first place -- it doesn't make any sense?
Unfortunately your commentary implies that a board member (reading this now) paid way too much money for a substandard coin, which appears (to me) to be an attempt to undermine the transaction, in which case I feel betrayed and you should be ashamed of yourself. If I sound a bit sarcastic and agitated, it's because I am -- but just a little. However, I am kicking myself for allowing you to take the toned PCGS MS67 1955-P Washington 25C and the toned PCGS MS66 Washington 25C on memo to sell. Moreover, your behavior in this matter has made me less than enthusiastic about affording you the opportunity to acquire any of the other Roosevelt dimes, Washington quarters and Franklin half dollars you expressed a desire to purchase (from the cool mint set deal I just got back from PCGS) such as the MONSTER toned 1953-P Frankie 50C.
In the final analysis I'd expect better behavior from a friend and fellow professional, but I've blown it myself in this regard and learned my lesson -- hopefully you will too. Now I'm going to put this in the past, forgive and forget... and move forward.
Best Regards,
Mike
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Knowing what I just said, I trust you can appreciate my comments from the standpoint of addressing specific issues concerning the Roosie market in general (which serious collectors specifically requested I try to help them to comprehend and analyze). Otherwise, I would have to say, "I can not talk about the Roosie market - period".
Come on - this is getting too weird - I am getting publicly scolded for stating a "modern" Roosie was sold for too much money by you, when I never mentioned you and left out even what date in the series I was talking about, until someone else mentioned it! Again, you were never brought into this "mix" and someone mentioned your specific dated coin first on a companion thread to this one.
And, now that you brought yourself into this discussion, for the record, from what I have seen Coingame endeavors to sell quality coins at fair prices (of course, his reputation on the 19th coinage is also spectacular). I would have been "tickled pink" to buy the coin in question for $650, even though it was, IMHO, a dull, offwhite example (and I am certainly entitled to that opinion).
Finally, as is often the case, this should have been all done via PM's -as friends often do.
Wondercoin