Time to press for change with a coin Doctor- Ideas?
Tonekiller
Posts: 1,308 ✭✭
I have decided to pressure a eBay coin doctor into disclosing that their coins are artificially toned. I personally feel this damages my companies specific market and must be addressed. The method of confrontation will start with a strongly worded complaint (or what ever the legal term is) sent to the seller via an attorney stating in so many words to “please disclose these coins are artificially colored”.
We have contacted several local and out of state attorneys seeking counsel and I think we will probably use one of our coin collecting forum members. Will it work or is it even possible to cause a change?….opinions?
TBT
The seller in question has used up to 3 different ID’s (two are NRU’ed) and has currently over 40+ artificially toned coins for sale with many bidders. 90% of the sales are under $50.
We have contacted several local and out of state attorneys seeking counsel and I think we will probably use one of our coin collecting forum members. Will it work or is it even possible to cause a change?….opinions?
TBT
The seller in question has used up to 3 different ID’s (two are NRU’ed) and has currently over 40+ artificially toned coins for sale with many bidders. 90% of the sales are under $50.
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Comments
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
When in reality he's taking the odds of how many people will indeed send them in. As far as damaging your market I will say this as my opinion only.... People will still pay high dollar for toned coins that set themselves apart from others..... But the normal so called "Rainbow Toned" is getting old and many people including myself won't pay the prices anymore. Good luck trying to shut him down.
You're damn right it's hurting your business. Why would I or anyone else buy one of your slabbed toned Morgans for $500 when I can get one that looks almost just like from swimmer or easyman for $50? After all the overwhelming opinion of the collectors on this board is "So what if it's AT? It's pretty and you like it then buy it."
why/how is it hurting your busines?
K S
<< <i>your wasting your time. there's not industry-accepted def'n of "artificially colored"
why/how is it hurting your busines?
K S >>
Karl,
I would have to disagree with you as there is a market-defined description and general accepted definition of artificially toned. I am not taking about accelerated color but chemical and heat color that most toned coin collectors / dealers can determine in seconds of looking at a coin. The seller in question uses a chemical and heat method that would not pass any 3rd party grading services even ACG…….I would hope.
If the seller discloses that the coins are “art” toned or “artificial” then the buyers are aware and can make their own decisions. We specialize is selling only color toned coins both on eBay and at shows, and when the market is flooded with AT’ed stuff it hurts our sales, hurts the market when these buyers learn or waste monies for certification, and shows that the hobby does not police itself.
Think of it this way. The coin is damaged by having corrosive chemicals put on the coins surface. Fraud is being perpetrated by not disclosing that fact. The seller is rolling the dice that the sale is too small of dollar value and or the buyer is naive to the authenticity of the color to cause any trouble. Is it ok to sell a copy of a brand name item without disclosing it?
TBT
That will get you booted very fast.
It should be covered under the FTC regulations so I'd start there.
FTC Truth in Advertising
Good Luck
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
<< <i>Is it ok to sell a copy of a brand name item without disclosing it >>
as a matter of fact, it is. i can go to target right now & buy a shirt that looks virtually identical to polo shirts, & i can buy generic-brand jeans that look just like levi's. for that matter, i can buy a vess-soda that looks & tastes (almost) exactly like coca-cola, i can buy generic q-tips that look exactly like the 1's sold by johnson & johnson, etc etc etc. the list goes on.
<< <i>I would have to disagree with you as there is a market-defined description and general accepted definition of artificially toned >>
tonekiller, i flatly disagree (which will come as no surprise). sure you & i can probably tell 95% of the coins that were toned yesterday, but your making the rash assumption that you & i (figuratively speakin) comprise the entire market. such is just not the case. there are plenty of folks buying coins right now who LIKE the flash-toned coins, & you have no right to deprive them of what they want, granted they are doing nothing illegal.
i personally dislike vehemently the kind of color that was "cooked on" just yesterday, but you are trying to legislate something which defies legal def'n in this free-enterprise system.
just my 2c worth, but my opinion is as worthless as anyones else's
K S
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
Good points but I am willing to push this issue and see what happens. We could both argue our points all day but that would not change the end game.
Islemangu,
Auction interference is just as distasteful to me as AT’ed coins. I understand and appreciate your intent but not your possible solution.
TBT
K S
K S
On this subject I would enlist the help of PCGS, NGC and the ANA in formulating a definition of what is acceptable toning for coins, and what it AT and try to show that what this dealer is doing is contrary and injurious (is there such a word?
Frank
Michael
<< <i>i think your cause is hopeless >>
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.
Russ, NCNE
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5
"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
could you please link in this thread a sample auction for me to browse?
I put these people that AT coins to sell on Ebay in the same class as people that counterfeit currency and credit cards, they are criminals IMO who's intent is to defraud and deceive for personal gain.
dragon
Click here for the aforementioned slimeball's auctions.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i><< i think your cause is hopeless >> ... People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it. >>
what makes you think people are "doing it" (stopping coin dr's)? my point is, i nothing will get accomplished as long as the wrong issue keeps being "addressed".
the problem ought not to be "why do people manufacture toned coins", but rather "why do people demand toned coins". w/out an absurd market in place, absurd demand & therefore absurd supply would go away
K S
Some progress/good is better than none at all. I dare you to (honestly) disagree with that.
So, I guess if you worked for the DEA, you'd arrest all the users and ignore the drug dealers? You see, your argument makes no sense to me. Can we make the problem go away? No, of course not. But, we can put a dent in it - however small - and maybe prevent a handful of people from getting screwed. If everyone had your attitude, nobody would be helped.
Because of a feedback I left for this seller, there is a buyer who got $600 of his hard earned money back. The slimeball is still selling, sure, but there is at least one less victim who's far less likely to get taken the next time around.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>
<< <i>i think your cause is hopeless >>
People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ there is a Latin term for that: coinus interruptus
- j c c
(sorry, posted my reply before reading the previous posts)
<< <i>Karl, So, I guess if you worked for the DEA, you'd arrest all the users and ignore the drug dealers? You see, your argument makes no sense to me. >>
russ, i think that IS what the dea is doing, & look at how "successful" the war on drugs has been...
couple of things you're assuming (as are the "anti-coin-doctor" crusaders):
#1 drug-use is totally "bad"
#2 that anti-drugsters speak for the entire market
again, it is constantly assumed by folks like coinguy1, legend, tonekiller, etc, that ever single person in the coin market despises flash-toned coins, & i could easily prove that such is not the case. likewise, it would be extremely difficult for anyone to make a case that every citizen in the united states is against recreational drug use.
hypohetically, the coin market is part of our free-market system, and generally speaking, i believe that when you try to suppress part of the free market against it's will, you are doomed to failure. this includes legislation.
put it this way: the penalties for drug use in our society at the end-user have never been higher than they are now. but, how much as drug use been reduced by the war on drugs that's been raging since the gerald-ford era?
same w/ coins
btw, just so folks understand, i do not use tobacco or drugs (uh ... unless you count mild alcohol consuption), & i despise flash-toned coins. in fact, i despise cigarettes & they cause me asthmatic attacks, but i am 100% against unfair taxation, etc. against tobacco companies, etc. but i do not puport to speak for society & demand that everyone else cease use of tobacco or drugs, or cease buying & selling cooked coins.
basically, what i'm saying is, i don't want you , or coinguy1, or the posse, or tonekiller, or anyone else, telling me what i may or may not buy. i want the open market to be just that - open
K S
??????????????
<< <i>again, it is constantly assumed by folks like coinguy1, legend, tonekiller, etc, that ever single person in the coin market despises flash-toned coins, & i could easily prove that such is not the case. l >>
I wont speak for the others, but, I assume no such thing. I would guess, though, that the others you mentioned, don't assume that either.
point is, you have no right to deprive somebody of buying a-t coins, if that is what they want to buy. & it follows that you have no right to prevent selling of a-t coins if a free market is available to such
K S
therein, you will find results!
K S
I completely disagree, there is a very definate standard for what is considered natural tone and what is known to be home cooked crap, the problem is that most people don't know the difference. Also, a crook is a crook.......plain and simple.
Are you also going to make those companies that paint Dale Ernart or The WTC towers on The Silver bullion coins stop. Why are those coins OK and not the colored morgans?
I as a buyer have every right to buy whatever coin I wish. I do agree that Aswimmer is probably falsley advertising his coins as original. But how on earth could one quantify what is original and what is AT. If you sell beautifully toned coins holdered by the major grading services, then you have your authentification, and your credibility. Aswimmer does not sell his holdered by the three reputable grading services, and he can bend them in half and sell them as coin sandwhiches if he wishes. It is a supply issue of which those people buying the coins want them just the way they are.
As an example: two years ago I bought my first three toned coins. They were beautiful to look upon. I E-mailed Tonelover (a member here) and asked his opinion. AT was the definitive response from him. I put them up for auction on Ebay as I would rather own an original over an obvious AT coin. I put massive huge lettering in the auction description that I was 100% sure the coins were AT and not original. I sold a common 1893 commerative half for about $120.00 and two cooked morgans for $160 each (these were $25.00 raw coins). The buyers KNEW they were AT and were more than happy to pay the cost of the coin for those wild colors.
Good luck, and don't let anybody dissuade you if you feel strongly about it. I think educating your customers to buy slabbed toned coins helps your cause and the industry as much as fighting the Aswimmers of the world.
Tyler
K S
that must be the ticket for BIG profits -
RUSS, you bought from them, who were these guys before their Jan '03 start-up?
<< <i>A-HA! now coinguy1, you are on to something. if your talking EDUCATION, whole 'nother story. i am 950% full-steam ahead all for educating the market as to what is natural tone, >>
Why only 950% full steam ahead and not higher?
I do not disagree on the education aspect - that is something which is (hopefully still) being worked on by Michael/frattlaw and a small group of us and I encourage others to continue to focus on that, as well.
While at the Central States show in St. Louis last week, I attended a meeting with some fellow dealers who are also concerned about this issue. We "brainstormed" in an attempt to come up with some consumer protection/education ideas. It my hope and belief that something good will come of it before too long.
<< <i>russ, i think that IS what the dea is doing, & look at how "successful" the war on drugs has been... >>
Karl,
It's a miserable failure because those that are in charge don't have the political stones to do what is necessary to really put a dent in the problem. If I were given carte blanche to run it, the problem would be solved.
<< <i>couple of things you're assuming (as are the "anti-coin-doctor" crusaders):
#1 drug-use is totally "bad"
#2 that anti-drugsters speak for the entire market >>
Actually, Karl, you're the one assuming. I happen to support the legalization of pot, and the release of anybody in prison who is there for doing nothing more than smoking it. I think it's ridiculous to waste taxpayer money housing people who did nothing more than light up a joint.
But, that's all OT.
Bottom line for me is that if we aggressively go after the suppliers, whether it be doctored coins or drug dealers, progress can be made.
Russ, NCNE
First let me say I applaud Bryan and his desires, but being a lawyer, I tend to be a pragmatist. Legally, it will be very difficult to get this in front of a judge/jury. If the goal is to harrass coin doctor's through litigation -- forget about it. All you will do is waste a bunch of money that could be better spent elsewhere. If you are serious about raising these issues and trying to set precedent, get the bank account ready and it won't be spent on lawyers, it'll be spent on experts. Others have hit upon the crux of the case. Before you can prove fraud, you need to prove the coins are AT. There's only 1 way to do this- scientific analysis performed by an expert and that expert will be called to testify at the time of a arbitration/mediation as well as trial. Not to mention depositions and through-out the discovery process. And if you think lawyers charge alot, you never paid and expert witness fee yet.
Now granted, most Ebayers cooking coins in their basement will fold up like a house of cards at this thought since they will have to defend themselves and if they win, they get nothing but the right to keep selling their wares. But, you have to be committed to the idea of going "all the way" with litigation if you start down that road.
But let's say you try and let's say your experts say it is AT and theirs say NT or there's no way to tell. Then you would have to prove that the person selling the coin, knew it was AT and falsely advertised it. Fraud is a difficult thing to prove. Its a mens rea crime -- you must show that the intent of the person selling the coin on Ebay was to defraud people. If the coin doctor takes the stand and says "gee, I did cook the coins, but I thought they looked so obviously AT, I wasn't trying to defraud anyone, I expected everyone to realize that." Your probably out of luck, the case will be decided from a "reasonable man" perspective.
If you are going to go after someone, choose someone who advertises the coins as being NT with a great grandfather story to add to the fraud. If the listing is silent as to the nature of the toning forget about it, you'll never win, unless you find a smoking gun piece of evidence. And trust me smoking guns end up costing alot of money.
After you prove the coin was AT and find your smoking gun pointing towards fraud, well now you have to prove your damages. Okay, what are they? How many sales have you lost because of Mr. Coin Doctor, or how much did you spend on this coins. Maybe you can do it as a class action, but there's no deep pockets. And remember, experts, lawyers, court reporters don't work for free and unless you are ready to put up $100,000.00 of your own money to chase some doctors off Ebay, these people gotta get paid from somewhere.
So lets say you win, congrats, you've gotta rid of one coin doctor for a little while. They are like mushrooms growing on sh*t, there'll be more sprouting up eventually.
Now I don't agree with Dorkkarl about supplyside economics, that's a failed model as pointed out by Russ. Education is really the way to go and again that's assuming that everyone who is buying these coins don't already know they are AT. Maybe there is a market for them. I don't know the business well enough.
The only real way to force these people off Ebay, is to force Ebay to force them off. But I leave that for the topic of my next thread.
By the way, I am still doing the CoinReports website and I am sending in a batch of coins these weekend to PCGS, but I still need more. Everyone was all in support of it, but no one wanted to donate coins. I need more!
Michael
<< <i>Everyone was all in support of it, but no one wanted to donate coins. >>
No one?
Russ, NCNE
Others have also donated, but I still need more variety of denominations to really make the site viable as a learning tool.
But it is a work in progress.
Michael
<< <i>By the way, I am still doing the CoinReports website and I am sending in a batch of coins these weekend to PCGS, but I still need more. Everyone was all in support of it, but no one wanted to donate coins. I need more! >>
What? No coins sent in yet and all that money donated to do this? Shoot my 100.00 could come back to me and it wouldn't hurt my feelings.
Michael
It seems education is the best recourse after reading all this discussion.
Thats sort of the intent was behind this current auction.Body Bag Auction
Now I want to do something similar but specifically on AT. Several years ago, I put a morgan in a vanilla sp? coin pouch and left in on my window sil for the sun to hit it everyday. Its AT now and that will have to be the sample for this attempted educational lesson. I need solid information on what and how to detect AT for this mission which hopefully some expert here could PM me on or post openly here on this thread.
I really do not want to part with this piece so definitely a high reserve price on this one
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways