Is Heritage Wrong About This Coin?

Mark

By way of background, pattern coins are classified according to Judd and Pollock. Pollock's book is newer and has many more die varieties than does Judd's book. So, a single Judd number might be sub-divided into several Pollock numbers, each with its own degree of rarity. Several years ago I thought that Heritage rather consistently mislabeled pattern coins in their auctions by always selecting the scarcer Pollock variety for a given Judd number. But I was never sure and had no one to ask. Now I am still not sure but I have people to ask: YOU!

Here is a pattern that Heritage is auctioning at Long Beach: Link. The coin is labeled "Judd 191, Pollock 234, R7". Pollock 234 is described as having a laurel wreath with clusters of six leaves; Pollock 233 is identical but with a laurel wreath that has clusters of five leaves. I've counted the leaves in the wreath on Heritage's coin innumerable times and I still wind up counting only five leaves, which would indicate it's a Pollock 233. What's the big deal? Pollock 233 is a lot more common. It's listed as an R5 not R7. (R7=4 to 12 exist; R5=31 to 75 exist) The other big deal is that Heritage does not give the Judd rarity estimate (which is R5).

So, to the extent that I am correct, Heritage seems to be making a relatively common, R5, pattern (with a truly impressive pedigree) appear to be a much scarcer, R7, pattern. But I sure would hate to stack my limited knowledge against the knowledge of the people who work for Heritage. So, let me ask: Am I erring or has Heritage misattributed this coin?

Thanks in advance.

Mark

michael

ttt

i am still trying to figure it out...............lol i do not specialize in patterns but an interging question!


sincerely michael

surely there are some on here that specialize in patterns and can give a defininate answer??

RKKay

Mark. Here's a link to the two different reverse dies, side-by-side. J191 Reverses I'm no expert on 191s, but it seems to me that this is the more common die. However, Lakesamman and Boiler 78 are great FE pattern guys, and Mr Eureka and Julian are great too. One of them has the right answer.


Edited to add: Also, Lot 121 in the Eliasberg catalog refers to this as J191, P233.

shylock

You're right Mark, it's the P-233 not the 234. The first image below is a J-202/P-246 from the 6 Leaf set, the second is a J-191/P-233 5 Leaf from the original 12-piece set (just like the Heritage coin). The extra leaves are obvious on the first pattern.

Trime

Not the only mistake in the descriptioon of coins in the pattern section of the Heritage May LB catalogue!

MichaelWeems

Dear Mark,

Thank you for bringing this cataloging error to our attention. Indeed, you are correct about that coins misattribution. The correct information will be up on the web shortly. If you ever see anything in our auctions or on our site that you think is in error, please feel free to bring it to our attention.

Lakesammman

It really bums me out that Heritage is getting their act together - it's making it SO much harder to cherry pick the rare varieties!!!

The most up to date info. is probably Snow's attribution guide, a must if you get into the subvarietes. Order it through Eagle Eye Rare Coin. I'm currently proofreading the next edition (1859-69) - it's going to be another great guide!

Blade

FYI - Heritage's site is now updated with the correct information.

jonesy

Mark, Good job! Keep cool.
Glenn

Mark

Guys, THANKS a lot! I wasn't kidding when I suggested that I knew I could count on getting an answer from people here.

And, in case someone from Heritage is reading this, I apologize if my initial post seemed too negative. I didn't mean it that way, but upon rereading it today it came across to me more negative than I meant. In truth, I was wondering if I was wrong or if Heritage was wrong. And, unfortunately, I know my record for being wrong ... sigh.... And, regardless of the attribution, that coin has one heck of an impressive pedigree!

Mark