Apparently this is now a PNG bashing thread
mrdq
Posts: 1,186 ✭✭✭
Nice highjack!
For the second year in a row I was invited to PNG day and didnt' get to go
Someone tell us about their experiance? especially the collectors point of view for us collectors. Of course the dealer's version of what it's like is always appreciated but i'm going to be able to relate to the collectors since that's what I am 
For the second year in a row I was invited to PNG day and didnt' get to go
Someone tell us about their experiance? especially the collectors point of view for us collectors. Of course the dealer's version of what it's like is always appreciated but i'm going to be able to relate to the collectors since that's what I am --------T O M---------
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So what do the PNG dealers look like? Do they have butterflies flying around their cases? Are there rose petals lining the aisles? Magic harps playing soft music in the background? Super models attending the cases? Does each PNG dealer have a gold front tooth? Is there a secret handshake? Do they have secret rituals where they do unthinkable things to helpless sheep?
I don't know about you guys, but I would rather deal with a small time dealer who has a gravy stained t-shirt and smoking a cigar but knows his coins, than deal with some elitist snob PNG putz who could care less about your collecting needs and really only wants to know how much money you have in your pocket.
Ed
I take serious exception to your remarks. If any member has wronged you, then you should deal with that. To paint the entire membership, as you have done, is libelous.
Please re-state your case with specifics. To leave it as you have is not acceptable to the public, the professional members of the Guild, and to the numismatic public, especially.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Ditto.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Perhaps you will be surprised how many collectors who have been unemployed and/or with much lower income than you specified with collections worth far less than $20,000 who get special invitations to these PNG events.
I smell an invitation is on its way to you.
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Correction for stoopid speeling mistake.
julian, please answer 2 points:
(1) what are the requirements for entry to png?
(2) do these requirements cause any professional numismatist to be excluded from png?
1 other thing, i doubt mr-ed's statements qualify as "libelous".
K S
Membership Requirements
P.N.G. is a non-profit, international coin dealer organization. Membership is offered to individual numismatists, not to companies. The requirements for membership are as follows:
Applicant must:
! be at least 21 years of age and have five years experience as a professional numismatist.
! have a numismatic net worth of at least $175,000.
! agree by signature to abide to the PNG's Code of Ethics.
! provide a financial statement verified by your accountant.
! provide a 1" x 1" color photos that will be used for a PNG Credential that must be worn at all
PNG Days and PNG shows.
! include a check for $1,400.00 that includes the first year's dues, a $100.00 contribution to
PNG=s Special Use fund and $300.00 for the Individual Plus Report. Dues thereafter are $1,000.00
per year.
!! New applicants are investigated by an outside firm and a confidential
questionnaire is sent to all members regarding applicants.
!! We require employers of applicants to consent to the PNG's mandatory binding arbitration provisions.
All applications and responses from membership and outside agencies are presented to the Board of Directors for final approval as governed by the PNG By-laws. Applicants agree by applying that at no time will they seek access to this confidential data. They also agree to arbitrate any future claims with the PNG instead of resorting to the courts.
Due to the cost of investigating applicants, $300.00 of the initiation cost is non-refundable. This is a one time charge; if it is necessary for you to re-apply, you would not pay this charge again.
Enclosed is the application for Membership. Please note there are two spaces for proposer's signatures. You must have the signatures of two PNG members in good standing to submit your application. Please complete all the forms, include your check for $1,400.00 and forward to this office for processing. Please return all 6 pages of your application even if blank to:
Professional Numismatists Guild, Inc.
3950 Concordia Lane
Fallbrook, CA 92028
BUT FROM THEIR WEBSITE
As a serious collector/investor/seller of coins & currency, you should insist that your dealer be a member of the PNG.
The PNG Collectors' Bill of Rights, protects unprecedented protection for numismatic invesntors & collectors. Click here.
PNG dealers are full-time professionals with verified numismatic assets over $100,000
Our members are bound to a binding arbitration process. If you have a grievance, the PNG will settle it!
The average PNG dealer has over 25 years experience
PNG-members represent the top echelon of US and world coin dealers
PNG members are strictly forbidden to sell coins/currency that has been mis-represented in ANY way.
The combined membership of PNG has sold hundreds of millions of dollars in rare coins & currency, as well as contributed to the hobby by writing dozens of reference books on a wide variety of topics.
You can feel comfortable doing business with a PNG dealer!
A couple discrepencies but not very many webpages get updated thoroughly except the webgeeks personal sites it seems
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K S
I agree with Groucho - I wouldn't join any club that would accept me as a member.
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
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get paid off? Honest question. It reeks of dead fish. A lot of good dealers would never qualify for PNG. I have nothing against PNG, nor do
I have the slightest desire to belong to their exclusive club. You see, I don't like those who think they are better than everyone else.
Let PNG do their own show and see what happens. So ok, guess I have a few problems with PNG. It is more about money and who you
know than about anything else.
Rusty
<< <i>This isnt the ANA where as far as I know no one has EVER been booted or even disciplined. >>
But at least someone named Hagar has resigned which makes the ANA a better place
<< <i>I'm guessing some dealers ARE excluded >>
i didn't ask about dealers, i asked if any numismatists are or have ever been excluded by these requirements.
ie, if i spend as much time studying coins as i do working a full-time job, & i am numismatically more scholared than most anyone numismatics, but i just don't happen to have a lot of $, are the eligibility requirements fair? i think this is mr. ed's argument
as for me, plenty of png members don't seem to know diddly about coins. but plenty of them have also forgotten more than i'll ever know
i'd have a lot less complaint if they honestly called themselves the "professional DEALER's guild". a lot of png members are DEALERS, but sure as he11 ain't numismatsts
K S
<< <i>This isnt the ANA where as far as I know no one has EVER been booted or even disciplined >>
totally untrue. plenty examples exist of ana members who have been banned for life
K S
I can call him on a Monday afternoon and order a coin and he always says ok I'll get it out this afternoon, you know I don't charge shipping so the price is all you owe me and I'll be looking for your check.
Thursday morning I'll have a pink slip in my mailbox for a Registered letter to pick up.
Still aint figured out how he gets a letter from CA to AL in 3 mail days. Good service I guess.
Heres is a novel idea. How about a numismatic test. Ya know...multiple choice, essay, true false...etc
Judge me by my numismatic knowledge not by what's in my wallet. Or just call me
WHat qualifies a "Professional Numismatist?"
Is there some sort of certification or licensing? Does summer school at the ANA count?
Even HRH claims most dealers can't grade coins so obviously just being a "dealer" won't qualify somebody as a professional!
Isn't the requirement by definition vague?
Does this then not question the qualifications of all members?
I have a few questions for you:
1) who are you?
2) what have you done?
3) what can you do for me?
Bwaahhahahaha
and negetive dispersions upon our already harrowed condition. We putz collectors ,
" just dont get no respect". Also a true putz would refuse to join any organization that
would have us as a member.
Camelot
Karl
I am sure that some have been excluded by the requirements, but there is an associate and affiliate membership categories as well. One thing that the PNG has never said is that you have to belong to the PNG to be a good professional. There are many fine professionals that do not belong. We would welcome any qualified applicants.
Ed
I am glad that you have seen my ads. I always appreciate knowing who I am corresponding with. Would you be able to turn your profile on?
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Glad you appreciate my twisted humor. Although we have never met, you seem like one of the good guys and a few of my fellow collectors have met you at shows and have only good things to say about you. I like your ads, too.
To clarify for the PNG legal team, I really wasn't beaten by the SS guards at a PNG convention. That was just an exaggeration......a kind of dramatic way of explaining how I feel about elitist organizations. Julian, your posts tend to have a pretentious air about them. For example, your post right above this says:
as it does bring the nation's very best dealers to a bourse
Very best???? In whom's opinion? I go to a guy in Springfield that is pretty darn good and he is not a member of the PNG, nor could he ever be, according to the membership "criteria". See my point now? Maybe the "small" dealers should form their own club. Call it JNG, or Junior Numismatic Guild. How about FPNA (Future Professional Numismatists of America). What does PNG stand for anyway? Pompous Numismatics Guild?
Have binding arbitration to settle disputes, and set aside a portion of the dues to be able to make wronged collectors whole if a member screws somebody and then disappears. Contract with the ANA to be the arbitrators so the decisions are completely independent. Have any disciplinary actions available to the public via a web site. Make sure memberships are in a person's name rather than a company so slimy operators don't keep closing down and reopening under new names to avoid their past. I think that could be a nice way for such dealers to differentiate themselves in a crowded field.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
While I do support the PNG organization and what it stands for, I do feel it is VERY wrong for there to be such a separation (of classes) at ANY major show-unless its privately run by the PNG.
It is sickening to me when smaller dealers are excluded because of financial considerations (net worth). It is wrong for them to be treated like second tier palyers when many of them make significant contributions to this hobby.
It annoys me to no end that I have pony up a couple hundred bucks extra to every year have the WORST table int he dang hall, just so I have the "right" to deal on PNG day. If I didn't really need to be there, I would not take a table otherwise-but I'm stuck so I must tolerate it.
Every meeting the subject grumlbes up (whether to can PNG day), and I sewar I always hear the same response-well the members voted for it. Maybe I'm a sleep, I don't recall any voting..
I think it would be cool if they just gave PNG dealers better tables-not ban regular dealers from doing biz on PNG Day. We don't need an snooty PNG day.
Again, this is MY PERSONAL opinion. If you all thought my table was horrible at STL, I promise I'll be on the moon or somewhere further away next year!!!!
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
<< <i>t annoys me to no end that I have pony up a couple hundred bucks extra to every year have the WORST table int he dang hall >>
Don't worry- If I'm at the show, I'll still bother.. err... visit... you
<< <i>Karl I am sure that some have been excluded by the requirements, but there is an associate and affiliate membership categories as well. One thing that the PNG has never said is that you have to belong to the PNG to be a good professional. There are many fine professionals that do not belong. We would welcome any qualified applicants. >>
julian, you already know that i admire you as a professional coin dealer AND numismatist, but in general, i am not an advocate of "png" at all.
2 poiunts that have always been bothersome to me regarding png:
#1: money seems to be at issue more than actual profesional numismatic capacity. let's face it, many dealers may have $175,000 in stock, but few numismatists do. ie. i certainly consider myself a numismatist, 1 of my good friends is a profoundly brilliant numismatist, you know what? neither of us has any hope of belongin to your club.
#2: there is an implication that unless your a member of png, you are NOT a "fine professional". after all, does your website not instruct visitors to "insist" that their dealer be a member of png? several of the most knowledgeable dealers i know are NOT in png, nor do they care to be
bottom line: i do not like the implications as pertains to a "numismatist". face it, most numismatists are NOT in it for the $, but for the love of coins. dealers are in it for the $ (which is great), & therefore are generally the real professionals. if the name were change to Professional Dealer guild, i'd be a lot more in favor, but the implications just don't work for me
put another way: your club's requirements are far more likely to exclude a "numismatist" then they are to exclude a "dealer", so the name should reflect the reality
K S
But I agree with Laura that this should go.
Last time I looked (1989) I thought the requirement for membership was either around $250,000 to
$300,000 in assets. It looks to me that they lowered this considerably and made it easier to join. But also realize that everyone's assets from 1989 dropped about 50% or more in the 1990-1995 market.
roadrunner
<< <i>bottom line: i do not like the implications as pertains to a "numismatist". face it, most numismatists are NOT in it for the $, but for the love of coins. dealers are in it for the $ (which is great), & therefore are generally the real professionals. if the name were change to Professional Dealer guild, i'd be a lot more in favor, but the implications just don't work for me >>
Heck, I always thought the PNG really meant Professional (Dealer) Numismatic Guild.
Hey, I never said the organization was perfect! But it is pretty darned good and can get better with a little tweaking here and there.
Could I qualify? Sure, except for the 5 year professional numismatist requirement. This is an important requirement. It does tend to screen out dealers that are "new to the scene."
lordie lord, I am not sure I could survive the boot camp aspect of 5 years of being a professional numistmatist.
or maybe that's what the png is hoping for ....
i say call it what it is. it's like a dipped coin - call it what it is: CLEANED.
K S
Lot of the old companies are now going back to their original and less accurate names but such names do have value to their members. They are NOT going to throw it away. Right nor wrong.
Even the company that first made the original computer game called PONG has now just gone back to their old name of ATARI!
Perhaps the ANA should also change their name too? The word numismatist is indeed so corny these days. Shall we call them American Collectors Association? ACA (probably taken).
Sure dipped is a form of cleaning! But like with my clothes I want to know if my sweater went into the washing machine or to the dry cleaners. Therefore I use the term washed versus dry cleaned. Just as with coins, I want to know if the coin was dipped or cleaned; there is a slight difference.
So what if they call themselves professionals? >>
that's not the key for me. it's that they call themselves "numismatists". numismatist, according to "dictionary.com", refers to the study or collection of money, coins, and often medals. notice that "buying & selling" of coins is not mentioned. that is what a DEALER does. & if you talk to many png members, i can assure you that the vast majority do a lot more buying & selling than "studying".
"professional DEALERS guild" would just be a far more honest & accurate name for that club
<< <i>Even the company that first made the original computer game called PONG has now just gone back to their old name of ATARI! >>
watch it buddy - i was a pong wizard in college!!!
<< <i>Perhaps the ANA should also change their name too? >>
i disagree here. i do think the ana as an entity is much more concerned w/ study of coins (ie the musuem, library, etc) than w/ buying & selling.
<< <i>I want to know if the coin was dipped or cleaned; there is a slight difference. >>
the key for me is, i want to know if the coin is original
K S
So, I can understand why someone may chose not to be a member but do not understand the flack Julian has gotten about the club.
<< <i>Furthermore, I presume that most dealers are Numismatists >>
agree w/ conder 685%! is jack beymer a numismatist? harry laibstain? bret leifer?
is DAVID HALL a numismatist???
not no, but HE11 no! they may be very good dealers, but their numismatic scholarship is not their strength - dealing is
there is NOTHING "dirty" about being a dealer, so i just don't see why the more accurate "Professional Dealer's Guild" association is such a scary thing
unless, of course, the real problem is that they particular members are not very "professional".....
nah, couldn't be it
K S
<< <i>numismatist, according to "dictionary.com", refers to the study or collection of money, coins, and often medals >>
Bluemooncoins is always studying
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Coin Junkie
cameoproofcoins.com
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
from dictionary.com:
numismatics = The study or collection of money, coins, and often medals
dealer = One that is engaged in buying and selling
so, which def'n do you think best describes the primary function of MOST p-n-g members?
K S
Are you saying/claiming that once someone becomes a numismatist (through the study or collection of money, coins, etc.), if they later focus on buying and selling, they lose their status as a numismatist? Come on, why not do the right thing and "disagree" with yourself?
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
There is a notion that the PNG is comprised of members who are numismatists that happen to use that skill as their primary (or significant) means of livelihood. I do not recall Karl explicitly saying that a numismatist -- according to what dictionary.com says -- cannot also deal in numismatic items. But, I believe that a PNG member must be (at least) TWO things: a numismatist; and, a professional through being a numismatist. He cannot be a PNG member if he is a serious student of early coppers but does not use numismatics as a major contribution to his livelihood. (He may be a numismatist, but not a *professional* numismatist.)
There is an important question on the table that no one seems to want to address: how much "studying" or "collecting" of numismatics does it take to qualify to become a numismatist?
Karl, you seem to have gone out on a limb and suggested that certain explicit dealers (Laibstain, Beymer, etc.) are not numismatists. So, why don't you apply some precision to this ill-defined term? While you're at it, why don't you allow us to voire dire you on your numismatic credentials? Show us all that you can walk the walk as well as talk the talk.
It is one thing to shoot one's mouth off about how great oneself is and how unknowledgeable others are. It is entirely different to be able to prove it. In the real world, the best proof is to show the world that you can do it and be very successful at doing it.
(Karl did not ever explicitly say that he is great or even that he's a qualified numismatist. But, his belief that he is qualified to assert that so-and-so are NOT numismatists should suggest a certain implicit knowledge of this matter and thus a certain position or ranking of knowledge vis-a-vis those supposed named non-numismatists.)
I will state that I am a numismatist simply because I have once studied the bi-centennial Ikes to learn the difference between the two types. I challenge Karl to assert that that is insufficient for me to be a numismatist.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
A numismatist is anyone who takes a serious interest in coins. There is no exam to qualify as a numismatist.
To further elaborate on EVP's post, you do not have to be a dealer to be a professional numismatist. You can be a curator, cataloger, author, etc., and qualify as a professional numismatist. The only qualification would be that you earned the majority of your income from numismatic pursuits.
Of course, there are stuffier definitions of numismatists and that would be one that did serious study and publication. In fact, I grew up with the local elders, at that time, preaching that. I choose to use the definition that I stated earlier.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore