provenance premium?

Wondo

I had a conversation with Adrian the other evening and he asked me what I thought about a coin with a historic provenance. For instance, say you have two identical $10,000 coins and one is from the Eliasberg collection. Does the Eliasberg coin command a premium? I think so, maybe 10% - what say ye?

wingedliberty

It really depends on the coin, but I would say 5-25% is accurate, especially an Eliasberg, Norweb, or Garrett.

Brian.

wingedliberty

Also, 100% is some cases, look at a 1881-S Binnion that is wildly toned. NGC-63 common coin is $25,
a similar Binnion toned could be up to $50 easy.

Brian

coinlieutenant

I personally dont pay a premium for pedigree. I think that the reason it seems that there is a premium is due to the fact that many of the Eliasberg and other major collections have tremendous coins. A good research project would be to look at the coins in some of those sales. First look at the really nice ones and see what they brought. Then look at the not so nice ones and see what they brought.

I am not sure but I would imagine the real premium is due to the excellence of the coin, not the pedigree.

John

coinguy1

I think it depends on the provenance AND the coin.

For example, I would not necessarily pay a premium for Eliasberg coins, as I believe many of them were overgraded by PCGS and NGC. Accordingly, an Eliasberg piece would have to speak for itself, for me to consider paying a premium for it.

However, there are many great coins from name collections, with wonderful pedigrees, that I would pay a premium for. My guess would be something in the 5% to 10% range, but I would make a determination on a case by case basis.

Wondo

What is the difference between "provenance" and "pedigree"?

Mark: Any 18th century from St. Louis?

coinguy1

Wondo, I use the words "pedigree" and "provenance" interchangeably. The latter sounds a bit more formal and snootier, to me.

Sadly, no 18th century items from the show. The closest we got was a trio of AU 50 Draped Bust half dollars, which I am going to send to a forum member client of ours on approval basis. He is only allowed to buy a maximum of two pieces, though.

nwcs

Personally, I would pay no premium for provenance of any kind unless the item was in a truly historic figure's possession. For example, if a dollar could be totally verified to have been owned by George Washington, it's worth a large premium. But if a dollar was owned by a collector (famous or not), it isn't worth a premium to me.

michael

for me it means nothing at all

it is all about the coin and nothing else

there might be a rare exception but i would still buy the coin not the holder or pedigree

sincerely michael

pmh1nic

If we're talking identical coins then the Eliasberg pedigree would merit a premium (10% ~ 20% sounds about right to me).

jadecoin

We have a client who pays a strong premium for Norweb coins, but otherwise, I generally would not pay extra for provenance.

- jc

pmh1nic

Given the answers to the question (provenance means nothing to 100%) I'm wondering if it comes down to what importance you place on numismatic history. I would pay more for a coin who's history can be traced over 100 or 200 years and/or was part of one of the older historic collections like Eliasberg or Brand.

BillJones

Personally I won’t pay premiums for pedigrees. I’ll pay fair money for the coin, but that’s it. I’ve noticed some Eliasberg coins that already had a “pedigree premium” built into them. They were overgraded in the Mint State range by 2 or 3 points.

dbldie55

I have seen some crazy premiums for Eliasberg coins. I wanted one of the 1883 No Cents for my collection. Knowing there were rolls in the sale, these are not that uncommon. In watching the MS64 examples, they have all went for crazy money, the last one on Ebay closed for over $300. The seller hyped up the lot talking of the collection, but I doubt if Eliasberg ever saw the coin in question as it was in rolls.

I did end up getting an MS65 example that my dealer located at a show. It did take a 10% premium to acquire, and as Bill claims, does appear over graded. Not a huge sum of money to have a coin from the collection though.

I also recently picked up one of his proof Liberty Nickels. I paid a premium for this coin, but think it is fascinating that from 1899 to 1996, it only had two owners(Clapp-Eliasberg). It can be traced almost from minting to that point in time. I will try and determine what hands it was in for the last 7 years, and then I can put my name at the end of the list.

Conder101

<< <i>What is the difference between "provenance" and "pedigree"? >>


Like coinguy says most people use the terms interchangably but technically Provenance referes to previous ownership or "where the coin came from" while the term Pedigree refers to parentage, family tree, or in other words genetic heritage. Well, coins don't have parents so provenance should actually be the more proper term. I don't think we are going to get people to stop using pedigree.

I do find provenance to be worth a premium with the premium varying according to the "importance" of the previous owners. Recently I picked up several conder tokens from tne Noble collection and I am currently waiting to hear if I was the successful bidder on a Proof Yorkshire piece that came from the Matthew Boulton family collection. I bid a 50% premium for a two hundred year old coin from the manufacturers personal collection.

coinguy1

<< <i>I bid a 50% premium for a two hundred year old coin from the manufacturers personal collection. >>

Condor, now that's a pedigree!

pmh1nic

Condor

Thanks for keeping us on the straight and narrow .

BillJones

"I’ve noticed some Eliasberg coins that already had a “pedigree premium” built into them. They were overgraded in the Mint State range by 2 or 3 points."

Is this an unusual example of market grading?

The premise was "two identical coins" hopefully not suffering from the market grading BillJones mentioned. As others have mentioned first comes the coin then comes the provenance.

ANACONDA

"How much to pay?" The eternal question.

"Depends on the coin." The eternal answer. (However in this case the question says: "say you have two identical $10,000 coins" so, "depends on the coin" means alot other than are we comparing two coins of unequal aesthetic appearance?"

So....

Here's my arm chair rapid analysis (followed by my application at the end).

"Depends on the coin" (as defined above) can be broken down into

How desirable is the coin? Which can be broken down into

Is it something you need .................(like you're collecting large cents and you want an unc wreath cent and someone is offering you one with a pedigree ..)

and

How good is the pedigree ..........Garrett, Eliasberg and Lee are better than Farouk or someone or some place most have never heard of (the Ashland collection)

and

how widely collected is the coin to the collecting public -- a provenance on an estoteric issue isn't nearly as valuable as a the same provenance on a widely collected issue.....

and

is it plated in an early auction catalog or is the provenance undisputed.....a Binion provenance on an ACG coin isn't obviously worth very much however an early cent that unquestionably appears in the first widely distributed photo of coins (1869) is something i'd stretch a long way for.

and

is it a gorgeous coin.....i don't generally buy ugly coins regardless of who has owned them but a real eye-opener owned by someone cool is definately something I want

and

who you are...if you're a low-balling dealer who deals in average coins and nothing gets you excited or turned on anymore VS. are you an excitable boy who has vision and imagination and can play make believe at the drop of a hat, in other words, if you or your clients like great provenances.....consider that.......if you sell to jaded old collectors who have "done that and been there", then consider that....and....segueing with this issue is remember, something is worth what the highest bidder will pay, not what the cheapest cheap skate will pay.......


and finally...

how much is the coin....cheap coins (under a couple of thousand bucks) will (proportionately) have large premiums for provenances as compared to expensive coins....people will pay $500 for the provenance on a $1,000 coin just to own something owned by someone famous.....but paying a 50% premium for an expensive coin isn't as likely to happen. [I bought one of the finest known wreath cents earlier this year and probably didn't end up paying anything for it's rather nice provenance (which i forget...sorry...we pay for the sins of our youth...)]

Application;

If it's a cheap morgan dollar under $300 owned by Lee or someone else of repute, I'd add 25%.....to 50%

If it's a cheap mind blowing coin under $300, I'd add up to 50% over and above the five times bid that I would have paid for the coin

If it's a nice coin coin in the two to five thousand dollar range and it's an early copper and i can find a photo of it in an auction catalog from before 1920, i'd pay a 50% premium.

Incidentally, we old time collectors don't get as excited about provenacne as new guys, typically. But, it is my opinion that provenance is currently underpriced and under appreciated. In other words, if you can buy really cool coins with great provenances .....go for it.

In summary, the real keys are quality of the coin, type of coin, price and who owned it and how that can be proved and not in that order

adrian

Bear

I sure hope people will pay extra money for the Jay Ross Collection

in the May -Goldberg Sale.

Jay Ross is actually a little bear.

wingedliberty

I am really surprised that no one really commented on the Binnion pedigree bringing anywhere from 15%-200% premiums.

Brian

jbsteven

I would pay a premium for a cool pedigree (Eliasberg, Jack Lee, Norweb, etc.) and could care less what other people though about it if and when I buy one of these. People collect coins for different reasons and to me having a coin from a famous collector is cool and I don't mind paying for it. One of my goals in coin collecting is to own a famous coin with or without a pedigree so I will be named "in the books" as owning it.

Nic

A great pedigree can go a long way...but it has to also be a great or rare coin. K

Wondo

Adrian,

Thanks for your analysis. I'll have to count my change jar; that Wreath just might be mine (if you still have it). Are there any provenance-only collectors out there? Maybe someone is trying to create an Eliasberg type set or something.

joejeweler

Funny i hadn't heard that name before......is he someone famous?
Hate to be the "bear-er" of bad news!



<< <i>I sure hope people will pay extra money for the Jay Ross Collection

in the May -Goldberg Sale.

Jay Ross is actually a little bear. >>

ANACONDA

Yes, I still have the Wreath cent and it is one of those coins that i probably didn't pay much of a premium for however, it went into my determination of what i wanted it.

It is the kind of coin you enjoy owning.

adrian

ANACONDA

"I am really surprised that no one really commented on the Binnion pedigree bringing anywhere from 15%-200% premiums."

I have purchased at least one serious butt kicking Binion coin (gone). I would have paid what i paid for it regardless of the provenance.

The Binion story certainly was an interesting one, much like the Farouk story, howeve, Binion wasn't known for being a connoisseur
but more like a hoarder.

Farouk, of course was known for cleaning his coins. I have never seen a coin with "Farouk" on the holder. Maybe there's a reason.
Kinda like "Hagar"? Just asking. (Yeah, right.)

I think long provenances beat pedigrees by a mile and the coolest thing i like are plated coins in old catalogs AND coins that have been
chosed as stunning exemplars as therefore are used in books to illustrate the type such as my 1922 Norweb Lee Matte Proof Peace
Dollar that Bowers choose as the plate coin for the 1922 Peace Dollar.

While I have not done much research on that coin, I think the fact that Bowers chose it for the plate is rather neat. Also, coins that end
up on the cover of an auction catalog are rather cool.

I had a Morgan that i paid multiples of sheet for then found it illustrated in Highfill's book on Silver dollars as part of the PCGS Tour set.
A cool coin which Michael the friendly ghost bought from me.

Joe picked up a magnificent Barber Half with a very cool pedigree (which is owned by one named person generally whereas provanance
probabably generally often means more than one known owner) which I thought traded hands without too much of a pedigree premium,
which can be done if one is diligent.

adrian

joejeweler

Hehehe.....
i hadn't really thought about it like that.....i just might get added to the provenance on my signature coin?

Hmmmmm....Clapp(?), Eliasberg, Anaconda, ...........ME!
Will all that fit on the insert? LOL

Hey......i just realized i've got the "Clapp".......and Adrian gave it to me!




<< <i>I would pay a premium for a cool pedigree (Eliasberg, Jack Lee, Norweb, etc.) and could care less what other people though about it if and when I buy one of these. People collect coins for different reasons and to me having a coin from a famous collector is cool and I don't mind paying for it. One of my goals in coin collecting is to own a famous coin with or without a pedigree so I will be named "in the books" as owning it. >>

joejeweler

The "pedigree premium" was nill in my mind too.......it was the Monster LOOK that was the killer!



<< <i>......Joe picked up a magnificent Barber Half with a very cool pedigree (which is owned by one named person generally whereas provanance probabably generally often means more than one known owner) which I thought traded hands without too much of a pedigree premium, which can be done if one is diligent.

adrian >>

bumpy

Considering how often it appears to be difficult verifying the authenticity of a particular coin, it strikes me that counterfeiting the provenance of a coin would be even easier. This considered, I hereby deem 'provenance' worth $19.95. As Jonesy says, however, I could be wrong. I'm drinking, sorry, don't listen to me.