Dose Artificial Toning require a degree intent

melikecoins

artificial: Made by human beings rather then occurring in nature.

How much human intervention is to much for a coin to be called natural?

Collecting?
Storing?
Spending?

What is a coins natural environment were it coin tone naturally?

A witman album?
A paper roll?
A plastic slab?
A mint bag?

Glen

joejeweler

Well.....collectors don't buy up those old Wayte Raymond cardboard holders because they're the best storage method now available.

And then to "Wayte" 20 to 50 years for that magic to appear.....Ummmm......Is it natural, or artificial toning?

When these WR sheets were first used the toning was probably a nice bonus.....was not expected or anticipated......and therefore considered "natural".

But now, based on what we know these pages can produce over time.........is it a stretch to say it could be considered "artificial" toning years from now since THAT is the reason they're being used today.......exclusively?

Man interceeding to somewhat control the outcome in coloration......if that's what we consider artificial......then it's not much different from a quick dunk in a potato or oven!

Or is TIME the only real criteria to consider......one quick.......one half a lifetime?

Dog97

On Morgans mint bag toning is the only kind that can be considered original because the Mint didn't store Morgs in rolls or albums. Original storage = original tone.

Iwog

There is nothing BUT intent to designate artificial toning.

Natural has no legitimate usage when describing toned coins. Silver metal doesn't occur naturally and must be extracted from ore.
If left to the elements, silver metal would oxidize into dust in a few thousand years. Silver coins are not natural but man made. Almost all of the hydrogen sulfide that is involved in ALL toning of silver coins is produced as a byproduct of industry and food and water purification, and cannot be considered natural either. Coins put in man made albums and left on a shelf to tarnish is hardly a natural process, but clearly a man made one.

Thus once again we are left with the ONLY logical and rational explanation for what is AT and what is NT.

AT can only be described as applying toning on purpose.
NT can only be described as applying toning by accident.

As always, I defy someone to come up with a more accurate definition. Melikecoins, I'm afraid your wit was overlooked by many on this thread. I also would like to know what constitutes a "natural environment" for a friggin coin.

islemangu

I think it does. Everything involves actions of man so the word Natural in this context means accidental. Album, end roll, skin toning is just as accidental as the mint bag. But definitely a grey area.

How would you rule this one? I just acquired a great Paramount slabbed Redfield morgan in their old (1970s I guess) slab with the red leather surrounding the coin inside the slab. The coin has rainbow album toning that has probably occurred while in the Paramount slab. Back in the 70s when paramount was slabbing, toning was considered ugly then thus the recent threads on mass dippings witness claim back then of ricardouno and others. Is this morgans album tone natural or AT? The toning is indeed rare as finding a rainbow redfield is seems quite a challenge.

braddick

The Market (read: Collector) has deemed if the coin looks good and the toning doesn't look like it was placed there quickly, on purpose to deceive, the coin has added value.

Not liking that fact or arguing even logically that it shouldn't be the case doesn't change that fact.

cosmicdebris

Speaking of ... Did anyone see the ad in COinWorld for the old Wayte Raymond cardboard holders?

ksteelheader

natural environment...I asked this question soon after joining this forum. Must have gotten over a hundred different answers....Ken

FC57Coins

There have been a bazillion posts on this subject and there will be a zillion more as long as people feel as fervently about this subject. What's AT? It's when someone cooks, bakes, toys, alters a coin to look like something that it's not. If the coin is left alone in it's own environment, whether its a bag, roll, book, holder, etc. and it turns colors, then it's considered NT - Whether the grading companies agree that it's "market acceptable" is a different kettle of fish all toghether and I guess that's fodder for another zillion posts.

Frank

Dog97

You guys make this too complicated and confuse yourselves.........
Clear you minds of intent, time and how silver looks in it's natural state before it is refined and keep your minds on the simple basics of how the coin was originally minted & stored and how the terms original, artificial and natural apply to our coins in the numismatic field.
Simply put, you have 3 kinds of tone:
Original
Market Acceptable
Artificial
Like grading, no single criteria or standard fits all the different series. Just as 2 technically identical Buffalo nickels may grade several points different because one is from the S mint which is historical weak strikes and the other is from the P mint which is historically strong strikes, you must understand the process behind why the coin looks like it does.
Original: What was the official authorized method of shipping & storing your series? The Mint didn't put Morgans in paper rolls or 2x2s then load them on a stagecoach or train and ship them to the Treasury vaults where they were put in Whitman or Dansco folders & albums for storage. Sulphur laden mint sacks were the prescribed method of transportation & storage. You must also keep in mind that planchets were covered in grease, washed in lye & borax, dipped in sulfuric acid and dried in acidic sawdust. Also along the way minting process became more modern so Peace dollars and Morgans minted after 1900 or so were subject to a different process so if you see a 1884 Morgan and a Peace dollar with identical colors you have problems with the authenticity.
Market Acceptable: Over the years collectors have used several popular storage means to house their coins. They include paper envelopes & wooden cabinets lined with wool, felt & cotton in the early days, cardboard Wyatt Raymond, Whitman & Dansco boards, folders, & albums in the later days and plastic albums, flips & holders full of PVC in the 70s & 80s. Though coins toned from this method of storage are very well natural they are hardly original as they have been removed from their original holder and placed in aftermarket holders. Market Acceptable is the gray area between original & AT. These coins may be a beautiful peripheral toned thing many of you call original & real or some horrid thing you call AT. Do not consider a 1 sided toner as absolute original bag toned as it may have come from an old time coin cabinet where only 1 side was exposed to atmospheric conditions to create the tone. A Proof with a crescent may well be natural but hardly original as Proofs were originally stored packaged, shipped, and stored in paper envelopes so if you see a textile pattern Proof you have problems. Many AT coins fall into this Market Acceptable category because it cannot be determined, even by the expert graders if the toning is natural over time or from 6 months on top of a water heater in a damp basement.
Artificial That is easy; it's blatant, crude examples like you see easyman and swimmer selling on eBay and often posted & discussed here.
Keep these points in mind and it will help you answer your questions whether your series is Modern Franklin halves & Rosevelt dimes from Mint issued sets or Bust Dollars from the 1700. Details & processes are slightly different for each year & series so I by no means say my post is an absolute blanket statement for all toned coins but rather just a simple basic explaination and guide in understanding the finer points of toning. I think most experienced tone collectors & dealers, even dorkkarl, will agree with me and if you don't please feel free to disagree and add to this discussion.

joejeweler

Oh......forgot to add that if some part of the criteria for determining whether a coin is naturally or artificially toned is the "speed" in which the color is applied.......

.......then, might a quick "dip" on an ugly (but naturally toned) coin be considered a form of artificial toning? Fine line for sure......but the coin HAS been artificially "colored" (black to blast white, perhaps?).

All the more reason why i much prefer a coin with a THICK SKIN of beautiful natural toning. A far cry from what is quicky applied by man, or intentionaly removed!

Conder101

<< <i>I also would like to know what constitutes a "natural environment" for a friggin coin. >>


Pants pocket.

stman

<< <i>Do not consider a 1 sided toner as absolute original bag toned as it may have come from an old time coin cabinet where only 1 side was exposed to atmospheric conditions to create the tone. >>



Good point Dog97, only add just a bit to that statement.... we see many AT coins where it is obvious because they will have the same color and pattern on both sides. And with good intent some folks will say the color needs to be on one side only, to be bag toned (which is not always true) but helps. I guess my point is not to determine the tone is real just because the color is on one side, hope my point is coming across as intended.

I have more to add that might Not agree with all your statements but need to run for now.... Need to go waste my time talking to a customer. There goes my tires and time.

Edit to add.... I would assume the Docs color both sides because when they use their chemicals or torches it spills onto the side they are NOT working on so they need to cover their tracks so to speak.