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Topic i'v been considering for a long time; Do you think the tv network that sells coins is ripping
barberlover
Posts: 2,229 ✭
mint state 64 1927 saint for 1895 dollars, ngc 64 morgans 3 for 150 dollars raw rolls of 1921 morgans for 400 dollars, etc...
How do you feel about these part time coin dealers on tv???
Are they good for attracting people to the hobby or is there pricing going to hurt the hobby in the long run ? Les
How do you feel about these part time coin dealers on tv???
Are they good for attracting people to the hobby or is there pricing going to hurt the hobby in the long run ? Les
The President claims he didn't lie about taxes for those earning less then $250,000 a year with public mandated health insurance yet his own justice department has said they will use the right of the government to tax when the states appeals go to court.
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Jeremy
It's all a matter of degree. What about a company like Littleton which sells nice coins at very high prices and targets neophyte collectors? Is that also wrong? Or are ALL the dealers supposed to run low budget operations aimed at collectors who know what they are doing?
Whether you buy overpriced generic stuff from CV, or mess up buying a raw coin on a serious coin show floor, ALL collectors make mistakes. You can't protect everyone, nor should you. People have to learn to stand up on their own. Now, don't get me wrong, I am all for collector education, and I do try to do business with dealers who feel likewise and try to give back to the hobby. But, at the end of the day, the CV guys are filling a certain niche in the market, they will convert some people to more serious collecting, and anyone who makes mistakes buying from them most likely would have gotten bit somewhere else in the coin market anyway.
The problem is most home shopping stuff (such as electronics, which I know about to a degree) are retail priced, because people know what to pay if they went to a store... coins are unfamiliar territory for most, but they see the potential due to hype of the great bullion value, etc... that is the problem here.
Jeremy
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The problem is most home shopping stuff (such as electronics, which I know about to a degree) are retail priced, because people know what to pay if they went to a store... coins are unfamiliar territory for most, but they see the potential due to hype of the great bullion value, etc... that is the problem here.
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This is true but keep in mind that most consumer products are marked up two
or three hundred percent at retail. Coins normally have less mark up.
i say DEATH TO THE COIN VAULT!!
Well, maybe just shame....
siliconvalleycoins.com
It's the same thing with the big time coin dealers. True story. A certain coin I wanted was priced by one of the major firms at 16.5K. I'm not gonna say their name except to say it is one of the most respected firms of all time. I knew I could get this coin for less. Was it the reponsibility of this firm to tell me that? I ended up paying 12.5K, because I knew what the coin was worth and I did my homework. Heck, I knew more about the history of the coin than the guy selling it to me.
I would suggest that, the markup in this case isn't much worse than what happens on CV. Someone not very familiar with the market could have walked up and paid full price to this highly respected dealer. Whose fault would that be? Would that mean this particular firm, which has done more than just about anyone to educate collectors, is "ripping off" people and discouraging future collectors?
No, anytime anyone sells Commercial grade coins at twice the Red Book retail price, that qualifies as a rip-off.
I know there is puffery in advertising and you've got to sell the sizzle with the meat, but unfortunutely these "collectors" shopping the TV network are going to holding a warmed over soy patty and not the top sirlion they thought they bought when it comes time to sell.
peacockcoins
"Let the buyer beware" is all well and good! Yes they're appealing to the buyers ignorance and greed--a fatal combination, by the way. Nevertheless, selling sight unseen 1921 morgans hyping them as "the last year they will ever be made," "each and every one grading fine to uncirculated" and such like is utterly unethical.
Companies that send you MS-60 1964 Kennedys and expect you to pay them $25.00 for them are in exactly the same league.
You know, if granny keeps that coin stashed away for several years and passes it down to her heirs, it will in time rise in value. Try holding your George Forman grill for 20 years and see what it's value will be.
Truth be told, I actually bought some old proof sets from them long ago. They were sealed as advertised and the price was actually competitive.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
I admit, I have seen an ad from CV that I thought was marginally competitive. It was on certified commodity Saints. Still, the fact that they deliver exactly what they advertise does not relieve them of the moral responsibility of addressing their audience in an appropriate manner.
I am specifically talking about Littleton, Morgan Mint, American Historical Society, and similar outfits as well as the Coin Vault.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
Yes, I do believe they are.
Now, do they have the right to do so?
Absolutely.
Although I'm against it, I understand their right to advertise their coins and charge whatever markup as they deem fit.
peacockcoins
After some of the defense of this stuff i'd like to have the them song from the recent version of "wild, wild west, playing in the background.
One of the biggest problems that has existed in the coin hobby for most of my adult lifetime has been scam artists hiding under the flag, freedom, and moms apple pie!!!
If you don't want government intervention then its up to us to police ourselves and that includes those that take advantage of new collectors.
The arguement that they have a right to do what ever they want may indeed be factually true, but it is ethically wrong and could have long term consequences to the hobby and the industry of collecting coins.
For those here not old enoughto remember what happened to the hobby in the 70's and early eighties, gradflation burned so many new collectors that people left the hobby in droves.
Today i think we have a much more immediate problem and that is the afore mentioned wild west attitude about the coin hobby/industry.
This guy on the coin vault should be a carnival barker, he is good, in a slick snake oil salesman type of way.
This guy is scirting outright lies when he says things like "buy now cause the price is likley going to be higher next time. Did anyone else see the pcgs 64 27 saint he showed only for a minute a few nights ago? if he paid on either side of 500 bucks for it, what would be a fair retail mark up ? 20% how about 30% that would be a hefty profit margin, but for retail i don't think anyone would beef, but somewhere in the neighborhood of 350 % ?????????????
Now, im not saying thats against the law, but the person that buys that coin might be a new collector who's never been to a coinshow or looked at a price guide or a redbook before so he or she pays over 1900 including shipping and after he sees his first gold coin in person thinks it's pretty and socks it away and buys more from this ready supplier whith live tv pictures of coins. Then someday he starts looking a little furthor beyond the confines of his/her tv set and goes to a local coin dealer and asks what the stuff he baught on tv is worth! RUDE AWAKINING TIME!!! and another burned newbee leaves the hobby. Do you think this is an unlikely scenario? Do you?
For those of you that are anti government regulation and anti lawyer on these boards, what is the usuall result of an unregulated industry suddenly getting more and more complaints and grievences going to local and national politicians [who want to get reelected]
Should the coin hobby really be the wild, wild west for newbee's to get taken by scam artists because there is no law against it ? The answer shouldn't be government regulation, but it should be a set of ethical standards that all large retail coin outfits should adhere to, and i'm not talking about unwritten rules that are not clearly spelled out, but some type of enforcement proceedure with teeth for repeat violators. my opionion- Les
I got to give SAH, HSN, and American Historic Society credit for getting me interested in coin collecting in the first place. If it weren't for them hyping and flashing their ads all over, I would have never gotten to know the fascinating world of coin collecting. This is about 5 years ago, when all I knew about coins were the Lincolns, Jeffersons, Roosies, Washingtons found in circulation. Then the coin bug bit me in the a$$, when I saw these guys hyping about the SAE, GAE, $20 Saint, etc. I started buying their stuff without doing my homework, but as I learn (and still learning) about coins, ANA, PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, PNG, etc., I realized my mistake, and, as they say, the rest is history.
As far as I'm concerned, I can't blame anyone but MYSELF for learning before buying. I actually owe these guys a thank you for getting me started. And now when I meet a newbie collector on the street, I will try to teach him or her not to get taken in as I did.
By the way, how do those SAH guys sell them knives and swords so cheap? Uh oh, here I go again, knowing nothing about knives/swords, and thinking they are a bargain on SAH.
is coin-vault really asking too much for their coins? or are you paying too little elsewhere?
maybe YOU are just plain cheap! (not you personally, directed at those who constantly rail agianst this sort of thing)
K S
Question: How do you know if you've been ripped off, if you are totally ignorant?
The time slot that they choose to get aired is cheap compared to prime time slots.Commercials help offset most of their costs.
Now I don't have a problem with a company trying to make a profit but what bothers me is the deceptive way they go about it.When you see them qoute prices do you see them using a price guide like the red book or the guide to U.S. coins? NO! They find the highest priced retail catalogue put out by some other company trying to sell coins also. They may be getting their suckers but they are hurting the hoby.
dbldie55
Fast food places,gas stations,and stores in general all have mark ups but you will notice that it is industry standard.You go from one place to the next and the prices are all close to the others.That can be said in the coin industry also.
The CV does not follow industry standard,they are out to decieve and rip people off.
I have priced their knives and swords and they were cheaper than what was in the stores.I purcased some and the quality of them is excellent.I buy a few lots every year and turn around and sell the ones I don't want for a profit.
If you are considering getting a lot go right ahead. I recommend them,for knives and swords at least.
I always thought their swords and knives are a bargain. Thanks for confirming it.
If you position is that people need to be informed and tough if they get taken, I guess that is one way to look at it. I think it ultimately turns more people off than it brings to the hobby.
My elderly mother is basically a shut in and buys clothes and things all the time on TV. I have told her NEVER to buy me a coin from these charlatans on TV, as it would be throwing at least half of the money away. She knows I collect coins and was amazed at how overpriced all those coins are.
What does that say about this to you? Should my elderly mother be taken because she wants to buy a present for her coin collecting son? That is my problem with these guys.
First i will say not every single coin they sell is an outright ripp off, in the same sense, the milk and eggs at 7/11 stores is competitive with cub foods or rainbow 2 very large wholesale store chains
but i wouldn't want to buy all my groceries at 7/11 because the milk and eggs were priced o.k.
Donkari, the prevailing attitude of if it was o.k. for me to learn the hard way, it's o.k. for the newbe's to, may bring some new people to the hobby but i would venture to say there are more ex coin collectors then newbees staying and coming here and thanking the outfits that ripped them off for introducng them to the hobby 'the hard way'.
Those knives and swords look cool, but i don't know what people do with them all [lol].
I wonder if the attitude of, let the newbee buyer beware is the same attitude as was the case in the 70's & early eighties with the almost yearly gradeflation and the everchanging anacs certificate coins? WILD WILD WEST, WILD WILD WEST i don't know the rest of the song but you get the point.
I've had my rant, and gotton this off my chest, thanks for sharing your thoughts. Les
and by aging them under strict environmental conditions to enhance the beauty of these rare precious metals, by evenly coating their exquisite designs with scientifically metered, damp, almost magical,
atmosphere, to create a truely unique, rainbow toned, masterpiece. These coins are priceless ! But for you lucky people watching, they can be had, for one hour, and one hour only, as they are in limited supply and when sold, are irreplaceable. Priceless, beyond words,folks. I can't believe how low they are making me offer these rare, rare, official US government mint coins !!! Only $499.99 for 12 US Silver Dollars, over a hundred years old. Each and everyone a CENTURY old, and available for a limited time. Please do not pass up this once in a lifetime opportunity. These coins are guaranteed to increase in value. They just arn't making them anymore. BLAH, BLAH, BLAH. ( I think I must PUKETH )
I'm game. What exactly are the terms of your guarantee?
Joe.
I'm a new collector and I've been screwed a few times but I'm taking it all in stride. Luckily, I don't think most newbies are in the market for $20 Saints, so the margin for loss is much less than for a seasoned collector. I think the bottom line is this: most people wouldn't buy a car without shopping around, so it shouldn't be any different with coins. Taking to car analogy to the next level we've got a local guy who pushes used cars in a very "Crazy Eddie" fashion. His catch-phrase is "HUUUUUUUGGGEEE." Everything is huge especially his extraordinarily low prices (sarcasm). The Coin Vault guy reminds me of him. I wouldn't buy from either one of them.
Bottom Line:
If you buy from a guy who sounds like a carnival barker don't be surprised when you find out your purchase is worthy of a side show exhibit.
Big Mike <><
Let your roots grow down into him and draw up nourishment from him, so you will grow in faith, strong and vigorous in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all that he has done. --Colossians 2:7
Jim
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"No Good Deed Goes Unpunished!"
"If it don't make $"
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