The games people play.....
NoGvmnt
Posts: 1,126 ✭
Many of you here are familiar with the dispute that has been raging both in this forum and the BS&T forum concerning the purchase of 1999 Silver Proof Sets between myself and Jerome F. Brown (oldguy).
Many of the coin dealers here sided with Mr. Brown and one of Mr. Browns other customers (baccaruda,ie Rick Ford) that aparently traveled from Indiana to New York to purchase his sets in person posted a response in the original thread "response" that he inspected at least 4 (I say at least 4, because baccaruda states that he inspected 2 sets at Mr. Browns house then states that he inspected another "handfull" at the bar, is a "handfull" only 2?) and baccaruda confirms that he did in fact find haze in one of the sets.
I'd like to point out that, in his post, baccaruda displays a picture of the haze on the kennedy half from the set showing minimal hazing, but the fact is that for whatever reason, there is more pronounced hazing on the state quarters in these sets than there is on the kennedy half, presumably bacause the quarters are more compact than the half and therefore more prone to the effects of whatever agent is causing the deterioration.
In any case baccaruda admits that he has discovered haze in one of the sets of the 4 that he inspected but now that baccaruda has offered these same sets on Ebay, he claims that he only opened one package and has found only "exactly as I expected – clean , nice and the expected ultra cameos ".
Baccaruda completely fails to disclose the truth concerning the fact that he opened nore than 1 set and also fails to disclose that he did in fact find haze on one of the sets that he opened.
And, low-and-behold, Mr. Ford also fails to offer any refund/replacement policy in his Ebay auction.
Rick Fords' Ebay auction.
Many of the coin dealers here sided with Mr. Brown and one of Mr. Browns other customers (baccaruda,ie Rick Ford) that aparently traveled from Indiana to New York to purchase his sets in person posted a response in the original thread "response" that he inspected at least 4 (I say at least 4, because baccaruda states that he inspected 2 sets at Mr. Browns house then states that he inspected another "handfull" at the bar, is a "handfull" only 2?) and baccaruda confirms that he did in fact find haze in one of the sets.
I'd like to point out that, in his post, baccaruda displays a picture of the haze on the kennedy half from the set showing minimal hazing, but the fact is that for whatever reason, there is more pronounced hazing on the state quarters in these sets than there is on the kennedy half, presumably bacause the quarters are more compact than the half and therefore more prone to the effects of whatever agent is causing the deterioration.
In any case baccaruda admits that he has discovered haze in one of the sets of the 4 that he inspected but now that baccaruda has offered these same sets on Ebay, he claims that he only opened one package and has found only "exactly as I expected – clean , nice and the expected ultra cameos ".
Baccaruda completely fails to disclose the truth concerning the fact that he opened nore than 1 set and also fails to disclose that he did in fact find haze on one of the sets that he opened.
And, low-and-behold, Mr. Ford also fails to offer any refund/replacement policy in his Ebay auction.
Rick Fords' Ebay auction.
0
Comments
Get over it.
I don't know either of you and have never dealt with either of you but you are clearly in the WRONG.
When you buy SEALED sets the risk is yours.
<< <i>why drag this garbage over here.
Get over it. >>
Ditto.
Russ, NCNE
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
Amazing how when you guys continuously post Ebay fraud it is a public service and it never gets old, yet when I expose some members here doing the same thing, it is old and I should get over it.
However, didn't you already do so on the BST forum?
<< <i>yet when I expose some members here doing the same thing, it is old and I should get over it. >>
The only thing you've "exposed" is your own ignorance. If you buy unopened mint product, you sometimes get less than perfection. Suck up and adjust, bunky.
Russ, NCNE
So what, he said he opened one and took pictures of it. Why does he have to disclose how many sets he opened as long as the ones he says are sealed are sealed. Does he have to tell everyone how many sets he has in stock? Your further attempts at making something out of nothing only furthers your embarassment. Close your eyes and click your heels three times and say I wish I was in Kansas, I wish I was in Kansas. Poof !!! everyone's happy now.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
Want some cheeze with your whine?
Got quoins?
The problem is that he clearly stated that he is aware that 1 out of 4 of the sets that he inspected DOES HAVE HAZE. He then claims in his Ebay auction that "I've obviously never seen these sets before so I can't predict whether they'll be toned, hazed, cameod, or be blast white cameos like the one I sampled."
Can't predict whether they have haze? He is aware that I've posted that the sets that I recd' from the same person and lot are hazed on 28.5% of the sets and he has spot checked enough of his sets to confirm that 25% of his sets are hazed, yet, he can't predict whether they have haze??? Get real.
Then, if you choose to buy unopened proof sets, be sure you have either 1) a note from your psychiatrist, or 2) a license to be stupid.
Enough is enough.
Jade Rare Coin eBay Listings
Maybe he got into his good stash and was having a bummer day !
on the sidelines
ultramike@collector.org
SHOOT FIRST-QUESTIONS L8TR...
If its nice and you REALLY like it " buy it " sure beats laying awake wishin you had, PLUS you will never forget or FORGIVE YOURSELF for letting it get away-and remember you can always pedel it to regain most of $ . Just one of many of " buying politics I utilize.
Besides I really lost sleep and beat myself up yo learn this simple procedure !~!
My posts viewed
since 8/1/6
...Ken
You brought a beef to this forum and posted it to inform other members here about a deal you felt went bad. You wanted opinions on the transaction, and you got plenty of them. The majority stating that you were not cheated (according to the facts presented by both parties). You didn't seem to want to hear that answer, so you turned your anger and insults towards the board members who did not support your view of the situation. THEN you attack another member from here (Barracuda), trying to make some fire where there is none. You ain't making friends with how you are choosing to handle this deal.
You bought unopened sets, and you opened them. It is common knowledge (and common sense) in the coin business, that when someone buys unopened sets of coins (which by the way, many unopened sets bring a premium over sight seen sets), and then the buyer opens the mint sealed sets, the buyer then owns them, period. Short of the coins being missing from the boxes, or damage caused by the neglect of the seller while the sets were in his possession, the seller cannot be held liable for sets which were damaged by the Mint, at the Mint.
By opening the sets, you no longer possess the same merchandize sold to you - namely, UNOPENED sets. Why and how would you expect the seller to refund you money on something he didn't sell you? He sold you unopened sets, and you no longer have unopened sets. See the problem? Something may could have been worked out between you two on the alleged open set, but after the way you have continued to attack the seller, I would not blame him for requesting that you go pound sand.
You say you know what these sets sell for sealed ($180 ?), and yet you bought yours for $120 (?) Please don't hold me to the exact numbers, as I'm not interested enough at this point to go back and reread AGAIN the past dialogue on the numbers. So:...
1. You knew that you were buying sealed sets under market price. You could have hit the lotto there.
2. You stated that you wanted to resell the sets on eBay at a profit.
3. You open all the sets, and find 4 sets with haze - right in the mint sealed container, inside the U.S. Mint sealed box.
4. You wanted to return the 4 sets with haze, (after you opened them), for a refund. That is not reasonable. The seller a one point seemed willing to make a special exemption in your case, and take back the set you claimed was opened when you got it, and refund that money or ship you out more sealed sets as replacement. Instead of calming down, you heated up even more and started insulting the members of this board, alienating other members who could have remained neutral if allowed. But none of that was good enough for you.
Conclusion:
1. You are either new to the coin business and don't know how things work. Fine, that's what boards like this are here to help out with. or...
2. You are somewhat familiar with the coin business, but ignorant (not stupid, big difference) of the way sealed items are sold, and if there were to be any returns for cash, creditor replacement, those boxes would have to of had STAYED sealed before you could even consider approaching the seller to request returns. or...
3. You have to find somebody other than yourself to blame for not ultimately ending up with exactly what you were looking for, and that was completely problem free sets. As you now know, buying unopened sets when you need/want no problem sets, is about the worst way to go about achieving your objective. If you want cherry sets, then you have to see the set, and cherry pick them. Outside blind luck, you can't cherry pick sets from sealed boxes - as you own them after opening them. They can't be returned, because they are no longer what was sold. You altered the items by opening them up.
Many other members have told you the same things (in so many words), and you refuse to take an open-minded approach to really listening and hearing what they have said. Despite your remarks to the effect that the member dealers here are naturally taking up for a fellow dealer (your seller), you should find out who you are insulting before continuing on much farther.
The MAJORITY of members responding to your thread(s), are NOT dealers. Most are collectors. More importantly, they are members collectively with hundreds of years of experience between them, and quite knowledgeable. A SMART person would listen to their advice with an open mind, and realize that these members answering you had no other motives than to help a fellow board member out (you). You don't like the advice and opinions you've been given, fine. Go about your business, and ignore thousands of members who have more experience in the coin field than any one person could possibly have. I just have to ask you, "Why did you even bother to post your deal here, if you never intended to take any of the good advice and opinions GIVEN to you?" You need to think hard on that answer, and understand that yourself.
In the meantime, this deal is over. The buyer and seller are now at odds basically because of the behavior by you (the buyer), by not letting this thing go after you received the feedback. Lashing out at members for voluntarily helping you out with feedback, is foolish and shortsighted on your part. Then attacking a board member here (in good standing), as a continuation of this matter, is asinine.
The bottom line:
1. You opened the sets, they CANNOT be returned.
2. You appeal to members of this coin board to see things your way, and they don't.
3. You won't let go of an issue that has been addressed, and is done.
4. You won't move on to another subject.
5. You risk alienating many others if you continue as you have.
6. Let it go, and start here again. We all get bogged down in our things from time to time, but we can certainly get unbogged too.
7. Turn it loose, and let it go.
8. You publicly called the seller a crook and liar in a public forum, and you haven't presented anything to prove that your allegations are factual - quite the contrary. You could have some lingering legal liability from that if the seller was of a mind to take legal issue with your comments.
9. Try and enjoy yourself here, and if you find you can't, then move on. There are other coin message boards, but pose the question to them that you posed here, and I will assure you that you would receive the same type and percentage of replies as you did here. That's because all of these people have vast collective amounts of knowledge and experience.
10. Nothing personal, but if you can't enjoy these forums, them please leave them to those of us who do. Thank you.
JR
when i returned home i listed the item. the ones pictured are one of the sets i opened, which was perfectly clean and haze free, as was the other. what would lead me to believe that the sets are bad?
after reading your post, the next box i opened had some peripheral haze on the kennedy and a spot of haze on one of the quarters. a couple other coins had a very light peripheral haze on the rim. i have about 40-50 proof sets from various years in my collection and this is not uncommon.
i checked my 1999 set that i've had since new. one of the quarters exhibits the same light peripheral haze. i'm not making any statements as to the expected quality of the sets. from the ones i've sampled they appear to be sets of average quality.
how can one take returns on unopened sets? i can't verify what's in these boxes.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
Jim
<< <i>I once bought a can of tuna from the store,got it home and opened it, and in it was cat food! >>
As long as there wasn't any dolphin in it, not a problem.
Russ, NCNE
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
PCGS THE ONLY WAY TO GO
Ed
I read that thread in the BST forum, and you have NO leg to stand on, your complaint is without merit, and you needlessly dragged someones name through the mud who did absolutely nothing wrong or unethical.
You're a troll, go away.