Postal Insurance Question.

MadMarty

OK, Let's say I but a 1964 Proo set on E-bay for $12. The proof set had a killer cameo accent hair Kennedy. I get the set here, and it's the deepest cameo AH Kennedy I have ever seen. Has to be a PR68DCAM! I send it to PCGS insured for $5000. The post office loses it!
I file a claim, I need the form (provided by the post office), the origional insurance receipt, and a receipt showing the value. The coin never made it to PCGS to be graded. How do you prove the coin inside was worth $5000? The origional receipt is $12, what/how do you handle this? Any ideas?

VonZipper

I think they will only pay the $12 because that is what you are out. The insurance coming back from pcgs should be $5000 and if it were lost then you would have a grade and market value for your loss. Just my thoughts might be wrong.

PhillyJoe

First off, everyone knows that Russ has posted pictures of these coins in every post office in the country. When I insure a package and the clerk asks me what's inside, I cleary state that it does not contain a 1964 Proof 68 D/C Accented Hair Kennedy. The clerk looks at me a little funny, but at least I know it won't be "mistakenly" delivered to Kent, Washington.

In theory, you should collect on the stated value of the package. You spent $50 to guarantee the arrival; it didn't so you should collect. Registered/Insured packages are accounted for at every step of the mailing process so losing them is slim, but not impossible. In reality, you have to prove the value. Much tougher. JMHO.


I HOPE this is a "what if" question.

Joe

MadMonk

I would hope that your assessment of the Market Value would hold up. You have a track record of selling this material. I seem to remember a court case, grading came up, and the court ultimately went with the owners grades. This case did not invovle postal issues, it was between dealer/customer, etc. So that is my incoherant rambling on the subject.

But, I would check with the post office, fed-ex, etc., or ask a big retailer.
I always use registered mail for $$ ouch money $$ items. Totally accountable.

prooflike

I would send something like that registered.

jimtre

Philly Joe's comment:
In theory, you should collect on the stated value of the package. Insured packages are accounted for at every step of the mailing process so losing them is slim, but not impossible. In reality, you have to prove the value. Much tougher. JMHO

I think you are thinking about registered where the above is true. Insured mail is NOT accounted for this way.

Jim

VonZipper

This is from the USPS website.


Evidence of Value



<P class=P>The customer must submit acceptable evidence to establish the cost or value of the article at the time it was mailed. (Other evidence may be requested to help determine an accurate value.) Examples of acceptable evidence are:
a. Sales receipt, invoice, or statement of value from a reputable dealer.
b. Customer’s own statement describing the lost or damaged article and including the date and place of purchase, the amount paid, and whether new or used (only if a sales receipt or invoice is not available). If the article is handmade, the statement must include the price of the materials and labor used. The statement must describe the article in enough detail to determine whether the value claimed is accurate.
c. Picture from a catalog showing the value of a similar article (only if a sales receipt, invoice, or statement of value from a reputable dealer is not available). The date and place of purchase must be included.
d. Paid repair bills; if the claim is for partial damage, estimates of repair costs or appraisals from a reputable dealer. Repair costs may not exceed the original purchase price.
e. Receipt or invoice for the costs incurred to buy a surety bond required to reissue a lost item.
f. Receipt or invoice of costs incurred for the reconstruction of nonnegotiable documents.

PhillyJoe

Jim, right you are. I was editing my response after I thought about it. But the P.O/Kent part I believe is correct.

cacheman

USPS insurance is a scam, just send the package Registered...it's cheaper too.

prooflike

A bigger USPS scam is Delivery Confirmation!

MacCoin

insurance company alway rake you over the coals. I hate them all. if they can anyway manage it you get the $12.00

tporreca

Last time I filed a claim, it took 9 mos to get PART of my money back. You'll be lucky to see $5 if they lose it.

UncleJoe

Very interesting. It seems that the Post Office buys the slab, NOT the coin.

If the coin was lost on the way back after having been slabbed then your $5000. claim may be valid.

Unfortunately, prior to being slabbed I fear you are only due $12.

Joe.

smprfi

I know it is difficult to grade from a picture,but take pictures of your coins before mailing.You would at least be able to prove the coin is worth more on the market than $12.The fact that you are a seller and a couple of grades given from other reputable dealers you should be able to get more than the $12 but probably less than the $5,000.

barberlover

Does this mean that when you send a package of valuable coins in the U.S. mail registered and insured for thousands of dollars and you payed 10-30 dollars for insurance that you have to prove after the package was lost what is inside is worth what you didn't have to prove when they gladly took your insurance money ?

If this is true, how can any of us ever ship any valuable coins with confidence again ? Les

MrSunshine

Send me an accented hair Kennedy and I'll send you a reciept for five grand

sinin1

You have to justify value to them - has the time necessary elapsed before claim possible?

You really screwed up if you did not send this registered insured but just insured - where have you been the last year? Besides costing probably $10-15 less if registered, you do not have the low wage sorters pulling stuff out of the mail.

Did you not hear about the employee who was taking stuff - certified and regular insured to PCGS??

A small light package with a insurance label and a $30 shipping cost screams - STEAL ME

Just because you felt PR68DCAM does not make it so - maybe it would have, or maybe PR66CAM.

darktone

Hi Marty, just over a year ago I had this same problem with a submission I had insured for $3,000 in the well talked about Newport Beach postal employee thefts. At the time forum members thought he had stolen over a hundred submissions but nobody really knows for sure. I had no real proof of value other than me and my Dad's opinion on their value and I was reimbursed after a long hassle. Several forum members settled with the USPS for a fraction of the insured value and to my knowledge one person never recieved any compensation! Do a search on some old threads and I am sure you will find some good info. If you want I can dig up the final letter I had with the post office about why my coins value was the $3,000 I had them insured for. Also send all your documents to the USPS certified or registered so you have proof they were recieved by the USPS. mike

supercoin

First, send it Registered Insured so it will hopefully remain a hypothetical question.

Second, show them the PCGS submission invoice where you itemized the value at $5000.

Third, take advantage of your longstanding friendly relationship with your postal employees (you do have one of those relationships, right?? it's well worth cultivating) to help your claim process.

Fourth, if they refuse, raise holy hell until they relent.

joejeweler

Quite an eyeopener to a lot of folks who haven't been unlucky yet and had a USPS insured package lost or stolen while in THEIR custody!

Fairness would seem to dictate that if the Post Office collected on the amount of insurance applied for.....THAT would be suffecient evidence that the owner valued the package at the insured amount. After all.......we didn't plan on the package not getting delivered and collecting a windfall! Total crap in my opinion on having to prove anything other than that you insured it, paid for what was the appropriate insured amount........and that the package never arrived!

And what happens if a raw coin or collection was inheriated from a long time collector? Are we supposed to value that coin or group of coins at the old listed sales price.....IF a reciept is even available to the new owner?

No.....fairness would dictate that you should be paid for the amount you insured for! It's a fund built up to average out so the post office doesn't lose.......but it shouldn't be a windfall to them either!

Bottom line.......if i insured a coin or coins that were legitimately valued at a high price......and the coins were lost and i didn't have the required reciept "proving" the coin was worth said amount.......i bet i'd have a reciept from a good local friend in the coin business by the end of the day!

I'm not a scamer.......but then i won't be scamed either by beaurocratic bull crap! USPS should just pay up! If they don't want to pay.....THEN DON'T LOSE THE DAMN PACKAGE!!!

You've paid the rate and deserve compensation......

Joe T




<< <i>Does this mean that when you send a package of valuable coins in the U.S. mail registered and insured for thousands of dollars and you payed 10-30 dollars for insurance that you have to prove after the package was lost what is inside is worth what you didn't have to prove when they gladly took your insurance money ?

If this is true, how can any of us ever ship any valuable coins with confidence again ? Les >>

jimtre

Prooflike says:

A bigger USPS scam is Delivery Confirmation!


Personnally I think Delivery Confirmation is awesome. For 40 or 45 cents you can know if it has been delivered. Can call on the phone (800 number) or by the internet. I think it is great (and a heck of a lot of others do to) evidenced by the increase in packages being sent this way. Shoot for a dollar or so more (not sure exactly what) You can get signature confirmation ( the person accepting the package has to sign for it).

Yes I work at the Post Office part time. Every day the Delivery Confirmation pieces upon receipt are scanned into the system (incidently these arrive to my Post Office seperately from regular mail) and upon delivering them I am required to scan them upon delivery. What a deal! (One note this information is downloaded nightly and then is available to you).

Now something tells me you are going to tell me some experience you had. My answer is yes I am sure some things have occured but heck if everthing you did was perfect then your handle could be Proof instead of Prooflike. (That was a joke).

Jim - Who sends the majority of his packages WITH delivery conformation.

python

The coin is only worth what you could sell it for raw. Until PCGS grades it's not worth the $5000. How do you know PCGS would agree with the grade you gave it?

joejeweler

Again.....it shouldn't matter, if the insurance was paid!

Here's a PERFECT example of why the USPS stinks in this regard. I've done jewelry repair for 32 years. About every 5-7 years i send all my polishing sweeps to a refiner to have the gold removed, refined, and paid for. Thru experience i know about what to expect if gold remains relatively stable. Last time out i sent mostly dust sweeps from the large polisher.....not the richer gold filings from working on sizings. About 8 pounds went out.....and i insured the package for $1,000.00

Two weeks later i recieved a check for $780.00 or so. The value of the gold was "actually" about $175.00 higher.....but that was the charge the refiner took to process this low yield sweep.

Anyway.....i KNEW about what it was worth.....yet had NO reciept as to it's value. So in the USPS eyes.....they would never pay off were they to lose the package! Is it reasonable to collect a variable (rising as more insurance is added) fee to guarentee the delivery of something of value.....then INSIST on proof of the value if it's lost?

I think not..... and the coin that is sent out raw.....though not yet recognized by everyone as of a higher, much more valuable grade, is nonetheless in the eyes of the insured as valuable as to what he was willing to pay based on his judgment! The fee was paid for insurance.....the CLAIM should be also!!!

Imagine if a person bought life insurance of $250,000.00 , and upon his death the beneficiary had to PROVE the insured was worth the amount paid for.......based on expected future earnings or some nonsense like that! The principle is the same.....a certain amount of insurance is paid for to get the package to the listed address. If it doesn't arrive......the cash should! And NOT 3-4 MONTHS LATER LIKE IS USUALLY THE CASE!!!!

Just one of those things that Pi*s me off! Rant over.....



<< <i>The coin is only worth what you could sell it for raw. Until PCGS grades it's not worth the $5000. How do you know PCGS would agree with the grade you gave it? >>

darktone

Joe, I agree with you totally that if you pay the postal insurance you should automatically get reimbursed that amount but believe me it does not work that way! I suggest taking pictures of your coins before you send them, listing the coins value according to a specific price guide grade(for example- if price guide says ms64 value is $400 you should right $400 on your submission form as this makes it much easier to establish the value) and keep a copy of that price guide so you can easily show the value when the coin was sent as this is very importent!, an appraisel from at least one coin dealer is a very good idea and the most critical part is to always send valuable coins REGISTERED INSURED only! mike

MadMarty

What is your break point between insured and registered? $500, $1000 or what? If my submission is under $1000 I send it insured, over $1000 it goes registered.

joejeweler

I wonder if anyone has sucessfully sued the Postal Service over collecting on a lost insured package when no reciept was available?
Anybody know?




<< <i>Joe, I agree with you totally that if you pay the postal insurance you should automatically get reimbursed that amount but believe me it does not work that way! I suggest taking pictures of your coins before you send them, listing the coins value according to a specific price guide grade(for example- if price guide says ms64 value is $400 you should right $400 on your submission form as this makes it much easier to establish the value) and keep a copy of that price guide so you can easily show the value when the coin was sent as this is very importent!, an appraisel from at least one coin dealer is a very good idea and the most critical part is to always send valuable coins REGISTERED INSURED only! mike >>

BAJJERFAN

What is to stop someone from mailing a common ordinary pocket change quarter, insuring it for $5000 and hoping the USPS loses it. If the USPS was to find the package later and realized that they were scammed they might be a bit unhappy. Since it is likely possible that some USPS employees might be able to delete certain info regarding delivery conf or other proof of receipt I'm sure that at least part of the requirements are designed to prevent fraudulent complicity on the part of USPS workers.

Russ

Uh, Marty, is this a hypothetical?

Joe,

Lately the post office has been tearing down my wanted posters.

Russ, NCNE

joejeweler

"Hoping the USPS loses it"?.........Scams aren't run where something as critical as the payoff play is left in somene elses hands. And the actual number of lost or stolen packages are really quite small overall......so a scam to happen like this might never develope to fruition in an average scammer's lifetime. I'd hate to see the shipping/insurance bills from someone attempting to run a scam on the Post "orifice" like this.

Granted.....there is a possibility an employee could be working with a scammer and intercepts a package to avoid it arriving at it's destination. But really, couldn't this also happen with an inside man at the Post Orifice who intercepts a package with the real deal inside it? Since it's being intercepted.......nothing is lost by the scam duo and insurance would be collected. No difference if a scam is run.

It's simply indefenceable of the USPS to require anything additional after the collection of the appropriate insurance fee for a declared value of a package! If lost or stolen.....let THEM fix the problem.......but not on the backs of it's customers!

Joe T



<< <i>What is to stop someone from mailing a common ordinary pocket change quarter, insuring it for $5000 and hoping the USPS loses it. If the USPS was to find the package later and realized that they were scammed they might be a bit unhappy. Since it is likely possible that some USPS employees might be able to delete certain info regarding delivery conf or other proof of receipt I'm sure that at least part of the requirements are designed to prevent fraudulent complicity on the part of USPS workers. >>

BAJJERFAN

If the USPS was to pay out declared value on claims it would surely encourage fraud of some kind. Also I expect they would be demanding some proof of value or worth of what it is you are sending as well as asking that packages presented for mailing be open and ready for inspection. More long waits at the post office. Do it right the first time and issues like this won't come up.

joejeweler

No disrespect intended here,.....but that is a VERY lame argrument in this case! The rates already reflect the "possibility" of having to pay off on declared value.......based on the current rate of loss in general. The higher fees for higher declared value work in the equation also.

Also.....they don't require proof of value when they're collecting your money for the insurance! If we conclude that the whole process of collecting funds (that are paid out in good faith but which do not, in fact, insure the package for which the fee was paid) was never intended to actually pay off in case of loss........then this is perhaps the biggest "scam" of all!

Funny that UPS is so much more reasonable regarding their insurance payouts! Something to be said for keeping Government out of our private affairs.....



<< <i>If the USPS was to pay out declared value on claims it would surely encourage fraud of some kind. Also I expect they would be demanding some proof of value or worth of what it is you are sending as well as asking that packages presented for mailing be open and ready for inspection. More long waits at the post office. Do it right the first time and issues like this won't come up. >>

BAJJERFAN

FWIW I have never had a postal employee ask to see what was in an insured package or even what the contents were even when the declared value was $5000.
OTOH at our local UPS branch (at least last time I used them) they insisted that all packages presented for shipment be opened. Apparently they have been scammed by people purposely shipping broken computers then claiming damage. etc.
What do you do with a $4300 coin if ins. is sold in $1000 increments? Insure for $4000 and eat the $300 if it is lost? or insure for $5000 and claim a loss of $4300 or claim a loss of $5000?
The fact that that coin COULD have been worth $5000 in a PCGS holder was strictly opinion with nothing to back it up. Had he gotten a written opinion from a knowledgeable dealer he might have a case.

joejeweler

Aren't we glad the insurance companies don't require detailed reciepts for household furnishings and clothing when we file a claim for a home fire? On a similiar vain.....i DID once have a loss filed under my homeowners insurance for equipement stolen out of my car while on a Great Lakes fishing trip. After describing what was taken......the $700 or so was remitted to me without the reaming customers seem to get from the USPS!

Granted.....some depreciation was taken because the items were no longer "new". But then.........some of them weren't new when i bought them either.

I felt i was made "whole" by the settlement.........isn't that why we buy insurance in the first place? BTW......in my 47 years......that was the ONLY claim i've ever filed, so i guess the insurance company realized it wasn't a frivolous claim.



<< <i>FWIW I have never had a postal employee ask to see what was in an insured package or even what the contents were even when the declared value was $5000.
OTOH at our local UPS branch (at least last time I used them) they insisted that all packages presented for shipment be opened. Apparantly they have been scammed by people purposely shipping broken computers then claiming damage. etc.
What do you do with a $4300 coin if ins. is sold in $1000 increments? Insure for $4000 and eat the $300 if it is lost? or insure for $5000 and claim a loss of $4300 or claim a loss of $5000?
The fact that that coin COULD have been worth $5000 in a PCGS holder was strictly opinion with nothing to back it up. Had he gotten a written opinion from a knowledgeable dealer he might have a case. >>

BAJJERFAN

Well I'm sure that if you told your insurance company that a roll of ms65 1893-S Morgans was lost in a mobile home fire that they would hardly take your word for it. OTOH insurance companies often settle on what appears to them to be reasonable. Since the vast majority of things sent thru the USPS are of fairly recent acquisition I suppose they feel proof of value should be relatively easy to obtain.

joejeweler

Nope...that roll of 1893-S Morgans lost would have had to been listed as scheduled property.......with a very high insurance cost! (1% or so per year i believe!). Most regular policies have limits of $1,500 to $2,000 for collectables and jewelry items.......after that you're on your own unless you pay additionally.



<< <i>Well I'm sure that if you told your insurance company that a roll of ms65 1893-S Morgans was lost in a mobile home fire that they would hardly take your word for it. OTOH insurance companies often settle on what appears to them to be reasonable. Since the vast majority of things sent thru the USPS are of fairly recent acquisition I suppose they feel proof of value should be relatively easy to obtain. >>