Beware of Jerome F. Brown (oldguy)
NoGvmnt
Posts: 1,126 ✭
For those that do not recall what Jerome was selling here is a link to his post here on April 15, 2003:
Link.
I purchased 14 - 1999 Silver Proof Sets from Mr. Brown, of those 14 sets, 4 of them were bad, ie: they had white milky haze all over the coins. I contacted mr. Brown concerning this problem and he claimed that he never opened the boxes that the sets came in from the mint although one of the boxes that he sent me was in fact opened prior to it being sent to me.
Obviously I wouldn't have to warn others of Mr. Brown if he were honorable but his response to my Email concerning the bad sets leaves me no other opinion that he is nothing more than a lowlife.
I believe Mr. Brown knew exactly what he was pawning off on the members of this community, and by the claim in the above link that he will have more sets for sale soon he is intending to continue his fraudulent practice. Don't be suckered by him.
Jim M. Burger
Link.
I purchased 14 - 1999 Silver Proof Sets from Mr. Brown, of those 14 sets, 4 of them were bad, ie: they had white milky haze all over the coins. I contacted mr. Brown concerning this problem and he claimed that he never opened the boxes that the sets came in from the mint although one of the boxes that he sent me was in fact opened prior to it being sent to me.
Obviously I wouldn't have to warn others of Mr. Brown if he were honorable but his response to my Email concerning the bad sets leaves me no other opinion that he is nothing more than a lowlife.
I believe Mr. Brown knew exactly what he was pawning off on the members of this community, and by the claim in the above link that he will have more sets for sale soon he is intending to continue his fraudulent practice. Don't be suckered by him.
Jim M. Burger
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Comments
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
<< <i>Still have many sets left in original shipping packages from the Mint (unopened). >>
If the packages (from the mint) were still sealed, then you got what you paid for. If the mint boxes were opened then he should replace them. As for sets having haze on them, it happends and if they were still in sealed mint boxes the seller had no way to know. His thread was that he is selling mint sealed boxes, I bought a bunch (almost 50) boxes of sealed 1971 5 packs, didn't get one PR69DCAM out of the bunch! Again, if they were mint sealed, you got what you ordered. If they were not mint sealed then the seller should take them back!
Mr. Brown sold approximately 100 sets to members of this comunity, AND claims that he will have more to sell soon. Apparently Mr. Brown realized tht he had the bad sets (that have been reported by at least coin world) and decided to pawn them off here instead of returning them to the U.S. Mint where he would only receive his original purchase price for the sets.
I'm simply warning others here of what to expect before trusting Mr. Brown. Why is it that you guys continuously post links to Ebay scammers but ignore scammers here on the PCGS threads?
How about some statements from the other members of this community that also purchased these sets from Mr. Brown? Who else got scammed? Speak-up.
Jim M. Burger.
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
<< <i>And upon closer inspection it appears that one of the glued ends of each of the other boxes has been tampered with. >>
Then you should have contacted the seller and said you wanted to return them! If you opened them, you screwed up any evidence of tampering! So lick your wounds and get over it!
Right or wrong its posted in the incorrect forum.
TBT
You spent around $2,000 and are unhappy with the deal.
Your seller probably knew they were bad because it has been all over the coin rags that the Mint discontinued sales for that reason.
Thanks for the heads up, maybe it will prevent others of us from having to deal with the junk.
That was how I understood it back when that fiasco blew up in their greedy faces.
He sold these sets AFTER the media and the U.S. Mint reported that these sets were defective.
One of the boxes that I received from Mr. Brown was opened. How many other boxes of his lot did Mr. Brown have to open before he realized that he had the defective sets? Ask yourself this: could/should have Mr. Brown known that a certain percentage of his sets were the defective ones after opening a limited number of them and finding that he did have defective sets?
To use your analogy, if R had any suspition that the sets that he intended to sell you were defective, then yes, R decieved you, and that would be considered fraud by the courts.
This is the U.S. Supreme Courts' definition of fraud: "Fraud implies a wrongful intent and an act to deceive. Fraud includes anything calculated to deceive. Whether it be a single act or a combination of circumatances, whether the supression of truth or supression of what is false, whether it be by direct falsehood or by innuendo, by speech or by silence, by word of mouth or by look or gesture, and the concept of fraud implies a wrongful intent - an act to deceive."
Then why did you buy any?
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
Jim M. Burger
You said
<< <i>The box that Mr. Brown sent me had 7 Mint boxes in it that contained 2 sets each, The 7 boxes were the priority mail boxes that the Mint uses, one of these boxes was opened by removing the pull strip. And upon closer inspection it appears that one of the glued ends of each of the other boxes has been tampered with.
>>
At this point, you had 2 options:
#1) Contact the seller and tell him one box was not sealed and the boxes inside look like they were tampered with. You want to return the whole order for a refund.
#2) Open the other boxes and see what they look like.
Looks like you did #2, correct?
Then you said
<< <i>He sold these sets AFTER the media and the U.S. Mint reported that these sets were defective.
One of the boxes that I received from Mr. Brown was opened. How many other boxes of his lot did Mr. Brown have to open before he realized that he had the defective sets? Ask yourself this: could/should have Mr. Brown known that a certain percentage of his sets were the defective ones after opening a limited number of them and finding that he did have defective sets? >>
So every seller who sells a mint sealed 1999 proof set is selling defective goods?
How do you prove that the seller knew he had all those bad proof sets?
I bought a sealed 1990 box of 5 proof sets from a seller and got this on all 5. Green crud around the Lincoln.
How do I know the sell didn't have others and that he knew the Lincoln was bad? I don't!
The only problem I see is that you opened the sealed boxes, how does the seller know that you didn't take the good proof sets out and put bad ones in? He doesn't!
1. When I was bulk grading 1999 silver proof sets in large quantities, only the coins that graded PR69 would get in slabs. The other coins would come back in tubes from the grading companies. I would offer these coins in flips to collectors as proofs (actually they could have been all the way up to PR68DCAM) for inclusion in their state quarter albums and they were often priced (and bid on) well below the value of fresh, original coins from proof sets.
2. I am aware of other submitters who would simply save the 1999 proof set plastic (which unlike previous years, snaps right open and shut) and then place the 5 "reject" state quarter coins into the set to sell into the marketplace as a 1999 fresh proof set.
SINCE THE 1999 PROOF SETS SNAP OPEN AND SHUT WITH EASE, IMHO, THERE IS NEARLY NO WAY TO DETECT IF A SET IS FRESH AND ORIGINAL OTHER THAN ACTUALLY SEEING THE COINS IN PERSON. I always excercise EXTREME caution in buying 1999 proof sets for the reasons mentioned above.
Wondercoin
My suspition is that oldguy knew that there were a certain percentage of defective sets in his lot and failed to disclose that fact when he sold them here. My question now is: Did Mr. Brown purchase these sets AFTER the news was released that the U.S. Mint became aware of the defective sets, and therefore, was aware that his lot most probably contained defective sets, considering that 4 out of 14 (28.5%) of the sets that I received from Mr. Brown is defective, Mr. Brown wouldn't have to open very many sets to conclude that he did in fact have defective sets.
It should be noted that in one of Mr. Browns' Emails to me, he states that he has sold approximately 200 of these sets, which makes me even more suspicious as to when Mr. Brown purchased his sets, before or after the news broke? And, Mr. Browns' statement that he will have more sets to sell shortly, seems rather suspitious as to whether or not he is aware of the fact that there are defective sets in his offerings.
You may be right or the seller may be right.
On the other hand, when I do get junk and feel that the seller knew, (spot checking is effective), they won't get my business anymore. If we're getting the entire story, relayed accurately, it sounds like this seller had a pretty good idea of condition.
I would, however, like to hear what he has to say about it.
Russ, NCNE
The bottom line is that I expected that the members here (being collectors themselves) were above reproach concerning the offer of defective material, and up until recently I have had no reason to question that expectation. I now know better, lesson learned.
Jim M. Burger
If you were wronged where is the solid proof. 4 out of 14 set were bad and its your word against the sellers that they were opened before being sent. There is no Santa clause in the coin business.
I am sorry if the seller will not work things out with you but the most you can do is not buy from him again. Your public post is an unwarranted attack based on your assumptions of what took place. Again it does not belong here.
<< <i>Jim,
If there was one set that you claim was opened, then you should have let me know as soon as possible, and not even opened the other boxes. I would have gladly had you return all the sets, and returned all your money. I can not even perceive, that you would think I would know what's in any of the boxes. I have sold over 200 of these sets without any person ever stating there was any problem, let alone be accused of some plot to distort, or corrupt this passion. The purpose of having unopened packages, is to keep them unopened. If you, the customer decide to open them, for the benefit of possible third party certification, which is why people open them in the first place, then you need to take responsibility of your own actions.
I would consider returning your money for 2 sets, which you claim where opened, but not for any of the other sets that were not opened. Just send them back to me certified, and I'll cut you a check.
Has any one else had problems like this with Mr. Burger. It appears he has had harsh words for other people also I have read. I don't understand the comment about being a scum bag. Is that what people are that did nothing wrong? I think there is more behind this attept to disgace me, but I don't accuse, or call other hunam beings digraceful names. I have nothing to hide or be assamed of on this. >>
Russ, NCNE
And for the record, Mr. Brown refused to refund my purchase price or replace the defective sets until after I went public. Even now Mr. Brown will only refund for the box that he, himself opened prior to him shipping the sets.
Jim M. Burger
I'm not taking sides. I just felt it was important that, since the other party involved had not posted in this thread and the participants here may not have seen the thread in BST, the information be posted.
Russ, NCNE
Get over it. He offered to refund your money on any Unopened boxes. 28% of the sets you received were crappy, you opened the sealed boxes up. The seller is correct, you should have E-Mailed him right away before you opened any more boxes. As for the sets with haze, you opened them, you own them. As for not buying anything else from the seller that is your right!
Hey Russ, I wonder if we can return all those sealed proof sets we opened because there were milk spots on the Kennedy's?
the box they came in are absolutely not tampered with, and i've inspected it closely. Jerry was a great guy and very friendly. He didn't strike me as the type to mess with the sets and try resealing them. I also brought a handful of sets with us into the bar as we talked and he obviously had no qualms about me opening as many sets as i liked.
Very nice guy and smooth transaction - i have no reason to believe he was pawning what he believed to be garbage.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!
He can't know which sets are nice and which are not, that is strictly chance. mdwoods
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
i plan on reselling many of these unopened - i understand oldguy's position.
2 Cam-Slams!
1 Russ POTD!