<< <i>"Doctors" operate with impunity because purported "professionals" do business with them. Can you explain this?
Although addressed to Julian, I'll take a crack at this question. Yes, I can explain it. People do business with coin doctors because they can do good, profitable, honest business with them.
Besides, if you refuse to deal with a doctor - presumably to try to put the doctor out of business - somebody else will buy the coin and resell it to you. In other words, if you can't tell if a coin is doctored, you might as well buy it from the source! >>
If I were a newbie and read the above,I would join my son in collecting Yu-gi oh cards!
Good,profitable,honest business indeed!
So,tonite I`ve learned it`s ok to sell altered/counterfeit coins between dealers as long as it`s stated "as is",and it`s wrong for one dealer to sell a whizzed coin to another dealer,unless it`s sold "as is",and don`t forget that knowingly buying doctored coins can be profitable,as long as you buy the market accepted ones as opposed to the forbidden ones!!!(Are there any!!!)
I`m getting a real education from these forums.Actually, it just reaffirms what I`ve known for sometime,know who you`re dealing with!
A dealer once asked me if I noticed any three-legged buffalos on the bourse,to which I replied,"...no,but I saw alot of two-legged jackasses..."
thanks for the eye-opening, thought provoking thread. I'm curious, as you were one of the arbitrators, exactly what you felt should have been done. Should recourse have traced back to Guy or Doc, and what recourse should there have been, in your opinion.
I'm just asking because while i am a born and bred, native new yorker, who is hardly ever shocked by anything, i don't understand why Mark, who clearly tried to pull one over on Guy, and consequently, Doc, should be compensated for what was obviously and blatantly his miscalculation. He was the one who pretty much "forced" the deal to happen.
As has been stated before, if the coin had made it into a slab and been sold for 100k he surely would not have split the profits with the other two.
further, there seems to be no evidence that proves, in the slightest, that there was malice aforethought by either the consignor or consignee.
I also want to be clear that had this happened not to a professional coin dealer, who theoretically earns his living by knowing 1) coins and 2) the conventions of the business, but to a collector or investor, my feelings would be 180 degrees in the other direction.
"Price shopping beginners" = novices ripe to being ripped off. This is a bane of the hobby.
How many buy/sell tranactions until the Large Cent that was "recolored" loses the "recolored" description?
A publisher can stop the practice of selling sliders as "Select BU" by holding advertisers to the published standards. A single (or not more than two) anonymous sample order will reveal non-compliance. This is not news, the practice is widespread.
I'm curious, as you were one of the arbitrators, exactly what you felt should have been done.
The decision against Mark was unanimous. However, the fact that he tried to negotiate a good deal was not in the least held against him. That is his job.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I'm curious, as you were one of the arbitrators, exactly what you felt should have been done.
The decision against Mark was unanimous. However, the fact that he tried to negotiate a good deal was not in the least held against him. That is his job. >>
Sorry to belabor this, Andy, but you're saying that recourse would have been against Guy?
In that case would Guy then have to engage an arbitration against Doc so that he could be made whole as well?
one last question - although i think i know the answer - didn't the fact that it was on consignment complicate things, for you, as it did for me? Okay, make it two - should this "verdict" somehow lead one to believe that the PNG would be making a statement that PNG dealers should only deal with other PNG dealers?
one last question - although i think i know the answer - didn't the fact that it was on consignment complicate things, for you, as it did for me? Okay, make it two - should this "verdict" somehow lead one to believe that the PNG would be making a statement that PNG dealers should only deal with other PNG dealers?
Two "no"s. How do you even come to ask the second question?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I understand that Guy won the arbitration, what i'm saying is that one of the PNG guys has to lose here. One way and the "mark" trying to obviously make the enormous killing loses, the other, and the "nice guy" who it isn't clear really did set out to scam "mark" does.
I have no problem with someone being forced to stand behind their product, which is why the consignment thing is important to me. Seeing as how it is "on consignment" it's not really clear to me whose coin it really is. It seems that Guy has not yet even paid for this coin.
Is there something here in the background that I don't know. Something about Guy that should have me wary. For some reason i just don't see why Mark should get off scot free in this instance.
If I show you a coin that belongs to a customer (let's say it's a bank trust department), and if I tell you that I have to buy it "as is" or pass, and if I tell you that they need a decision immediately or they are going to accept someone else's offer, and if I tell you I'm not sure it's real but I think it's 50/50, and if I'm being honest with you and you believe me, and if you think it's 100% real, wouldn't you give me a no-recourse offer? And if you buy the coin and then it turns out to be fake, would you really believe that I had to refund your money???
Andy Title cannot pass to a fake coin, period. Regardless of sales terms, whether a trust department, or the US government.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
AU 58 My apologies on my mis-interpretation of your sentiment "a lot of dealers, not all dealers". Andy has pretty well stated why business is done with a known doctor. I have never seen anyone whizzing or recoloring a coin. Hearsay is just that and ruins reputations. I act on what I see. I do not do business with people who knowingly sell counterfeit/altered coins. They are dishonest and I would rather see them in jail than on a bourse floor.
Dealers that knowingly sell overgraded and processed material, I have to do business with. I rarely cut them any sort of a break, but economics forces me to sell my inventory as best possible.
I recognized long ago, that I am not able to compete, in print, with the so-called "slider" dealers and that is why my advertising is largely institutional, rather than specific. The leading publications, for the most part, do not properly police their advertisers. That is also economic, as many of their larger advertisers are these kind of dealers.
I am not the only one who cares, but, unfortunately I am in the minority.
Beginning collectors always have recourse, but it is difficult and does not always have the desired outcome. As they grow, they move to a better class of dealer, many of which are members of the PNG.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
VAM 44 It is not ok to sell altered/counterfeit coins to dealers. It is still illegal. The only ethical reason to sell a counterfeit numismatic item is because it is for a collection and it is being sold as a counterfeit, with the understanding, that if it is ever sold again, it must be sold that way. All coins have value. As long as the dealers agree on the value, it is OK to sell it. "As is" sales should be carefully examined by the purchasing dealer. He may have very little recourse.
You are correct about knowing your dealer. A good dealer is an excellent asset to you in building a collection.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Yes, I would ask for a refund, and I believe that YOU would give it to me.
FYI, I believe that the US Secret Service would back me up on the legality of selling a fake.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Thread away, but not until Sunday nite, after CSNS. Thanx.
PNG member, numismatic dealer since 1965. Operates a retail store, also has exhibited at over 1000 shows. I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
Comments
How would they stop the practice? Details, please.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>"Doctors" operate with impunity because purported "professionals" do business with them. Can you explain this?
Although addressed to Julian, I'll take a crack at this question. Yes, I can explain it. People do business with coin doctors because they can do good, profitable, honest business with them.
Besides, if you refuse to deal with a doctor - presumably to try to put the doctor out of business - somebody else will buy the coin and resell it to you. In other words, if you can't tell if a coin is doctored, you might as well buy it from the source!
If I were a newbie and read the above,I would join my son in collecting Yu-gi oh cards!
Good,profitable,honest business indeed!
So,tonite I`ve learned it`s ok to sell altered/counterfeit coins between dealers as long as it`s stated "as is",and it`s wrong for one dealer to sell a whizzed coin to another dealer,unless it`s sold "as is",and don`t forget that knowingly buying doctored coins can be profitable,as long as you buy the market accepted ones as opposed to the forbidden ones!!!(Are there any!!!)
I`m getting a real education from these forums.Actually, it just reaffirms what I`ve known for sometime,know who you`re dealing with!
thanks for the eye-opening, thought provoking thread. I'm curious, as you were one of the arbitrators, exactly what you felt should have been done. Should recourse have traced back to Guy or Doc, and what recourse should there have been, in your opinion.
I'm just asking because while i am a born and bred, native new yorker, who is hardly ever shocked by anything, i don't understand why Mark, who clearly tried to pull one over on Guy, and consequently, Doc, should be compensated for what was obviously and blatantly his miscalculation. He was the one who pretty much "forced" the deal to happen.
As has been stated before, if the coin had made it into a slab and been sold for 100k he surely would not have split the profits with the other two.
further, there seems to be no evidence that proves, in the slightest, that there was malice aforethought by either the consignor or consignee.
I also want to be clear that had this happened not to a professional coin dealer, who theoretically earns his living by knowing 1) coins and 2) the conventions of the business, but to a collector or investor, my feelings would be 180 degrees in the other direction.
just wondering.
z
How many buy/sell tranactions until the Large Cent that was "recolored" loses the "recolored" description?
A publisher can stop the practice of selling sliders as "Select BU" by holding advertisers to the published standards. A single (or not more than two) anonymous sample order will reveal non-compliance. This is not news, the practice is widespread.
Yes, of course. Know the coins or know the source. Or better, both.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
The decision against Mark was unanimous. However, the fact that he tried to negotiate a good deal was not in the least held against him. That is his job.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>Actually, it just reaffirms what I`ve known for sometime,know who you`re dealing with!
Yes, of course. Know the coins or know the source. Or better, both. >>
And know who NOT to deal with.
Good advice, but it is often expensive to acquire that knowledge.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>I'm curious, as you were one of the arbitrators, exactly what you felt should have been done.
The decision against Mark was unanimous. However, the fact that he tried to negotiate a good deal was not in the least held against him. That is his job. >>
Sorry to belabor this, Andy, but you're saying that recourse would have been against Guy?
In that case would Guy then have to engage an arbitration against Doc so that he could be made whole as well?
thanks
z
Recourse WOULD have been against Guy. You can't bring a non-PNG dealer (like Doc) to arbitration.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>And know who NOT to deal with.
Good advice, but it is often expensive to acquire that knowledge. >>
It`s free here.
Cool!!! Tell us who we shouldn't deal with!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
z
Two "no"s. How do you even come to ask the second question?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
First of all, he didn't take the brunt of it. He won the arbitration.
Second, if he had lost, too bad. What's so bad about having to stand behind your product?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have no problem with someone being forced to stand behind their product, which is why the consignment thing is important to me. Seeing as how it is "on consignment" it's not really clear to me whose coin it really is. It seems that Guy has not yet even paid for this coin.
Is there something here in the background that I don't know. Something about Guy that should have me wary. For some reason i just don't see why Mark should get off scot free in this instance.
z
<< <i>It`s free here.
Cool!!! Tell us who we shouldn't deal with! >>
You can lead a dog to the water bowl...the rest is up to the dog.
Andy
Title cannot pass to a fake coin, period. Regardless of sales terms, whether a trust department, or the US government.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
My apologies on my mis-interpretation of your sentiment "a lot of dealers, not all dealers".
Andy has pretty well stated why business is done with a known doctor. I have never seen anyone whizzing or recoloring a coin. Hearsay is just that and ruins reputations. I act on what I see. I do not do business with people who knowingly sell counterfeit/altered coins. They are dishonest and I would rather see them in jail than on a bourse floor.
Dealers that knowingly sell overgraded and processed material, I have to do business with. I rarely cut them any sort of a break, but economics forces me to sell my inventory as best possible.
I recognized long ago, that I am not able to compete, in print, with the so-called "slider" dealers and that is why my advertising is largely institutional, rather than specific. The leading publications, for the most part, do not properly police their advertisers. That is also economic, as many of their larger advertisers are these kind of dealers.
I am not the only one who cares, but, unfortunately I am in the minority.
Beginning collectors always have recourse, but it is difficult and does not always have the desired outcome. As they grow, they move to a better class of dealer, many of which are members of the PNG.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
It is not ok to sell altered/counterfeit coins to dealers. It is still illegal. The only ethical reason to sell a counterfeit numismatic item is because it is for a collection and it is being sold as a counterfeit, with the understanding, that if it is ever sold again, it must be sold that way.
All coins have value. As long as the dealers agree on the value, it is OK to sell it. "As is" sales should be carefully examined by the purchasing dealer. He may have very little recourse.
You are correct about knowing your dealer. A good dealer is an excellent asset to you in building a collection.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
I'm not sure about that. I'd like to see the law.
Julian - Regardless, would you demand a refund on the "as-is" fake that you hypothetically purchased from me?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
FYI, I believe that the US Secret Service would back me up on the legality of selling a fake.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
I would absolutely NOT give you a refund. Either you misread my hypothetical or we have a subject for another long and scary thread!!!
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I firmly believe in numismatics as the world's greatest hobby, but recognize that this is a luxury and without collectors, we can all spend/melt our collections/inventories.
eBaystore
Doesn't breaking the coin out of the slab void the PCGS guaranty?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I have another simple question: What happened to the coin under question? Was it eventually sold, slabbed, doctored again, or???
Mark