I could have lived another day without seeing that big fat greasy fingerprinted Morg............... I'm a grumpy old time hardcore tech grader and I call the 87 unc. It fits most of the diagnostics for wear but circulation would show on the cheek and in the field with the same gray color also, instead of just in the hair. You'll find this on a lot of Morgans though not as severe as this. Look at almost any Morgan graded less than 65 and you will see some discoloration and breaks in the patina over the ear and in the hair without precluding the MS grade. That was the first picture. I'll not disagree too strongly with stman & K6AZ when they say AU because the second picture Russ posted makes it look a lot more like a circulated coin.
Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
Correction: It depends on what happens to the 1887 ANACS VAM 10 I have on eBay that closes tomorrow. I don't think the reserve is going to be met, so that would make three to PCGS. If by some miracle the reserve is met, I'll only have two to go to PCGS.
I know that I am entering this discussion a little late, but nonetheless, IMO the 87 is AU. As well, the toning looks artificial. I was under the impression that if you could see a small tinge of color heading to the edge of the coin that that indicates artificial toning done in a chemical bath with an electrode to speed up the process. On the right lower margin of the obverse, this type of mark seems to exist. Any other opinions on the toning?
Docday on toning, I do not know about specific AT procedures as you went into but the 87 obverse did strike me as slightly odd. The blue suddenly stopping looks obvious end roll toning but usually on an end roll toned dollar, somewhere else on coin is another fold angle or slight line or something since a coin is either at the end roll position or not. The rest of the coin besides the blue fold maybe does not fit end roll toning. However, the reverse is untoned that does fit NT traits. You mentioned a bath of sorts, would not that also effect the reverse?
The setting up of other roads To travel on in old accustomed ways I still remember the talks by the water The proud sons and daughter That knew the knowledge of the land Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
My guess is that all three coins will be holdered by NGC in the range of 62-64. Good looking coins Russ, attractive, I think you made a good buy. I would have to agree though the 87 is kindof suspect, but being such a common date, I think it is one of those ones, where it depends on luck, they will probably look at it for 4 seconds and slab them 63. All three have a ?? look, but they look market acceptable to me.
Just MHO
morris <><
"Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand." ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! ** Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY 28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST TEMECULA, CA 92590 (951) 757-0334
One more thing whats up with the 85O at the bottom left...it almost looks cut or something.
morris <><
"Repent, for the kindom of heaven is at hand." ** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! ** Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY 28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST TEMECULA, CA 92590 (951) 757-0334
The 85-o w/the print appears to have rim damage on the reverse as mnmcoin pointed out.... As for the 87p......It appears to be wear to me also......don't know about the toning....
Russ, Keep us updated on the results......will be interesting.
Those ARE much better images. If this is a more accurate image, I wouldn't be surprised if the '87 slabs at 63; in this pic it looks more like scuffs on a weaker struck coin than wear, to me anyway.
Seems to add emphasis to the point of how unreliable online images can be. Imagine if there were thousands of dollars difference from AU to MS63; how much would bids be affected between image 1 and image 2.
I dug through the recycle bin, found the original images and added them back in to the post. The discussion should make more sense for late entrants now.
Russ, I sent off submissions to PCGS and NGC this morning. A word of warning, the mail for some reason has really slowed down, especially registered mail. The last submission I sent to NGC took a week to get from VA to FL.
Russ, mine showed up today. That's pretty funny, two submissions mailed the same day, one from WA and one from VA, and the one from WA shows up a day before the one from VA. Go figure.
If the majority concur that the 1887 is AU due to bag friction then the next logical step is that all Morgans less than MS68 are probably AU too as they all demonstrate some sort of high point friction from stacking and scraping. Every $20 Saint is probably AU too for that same reason. 99+% of all currently graded UNC bust coinage is therefore also AU. Now that we've determined that nearly all UNC coins are AU, we better get a 20 point scale from AU-1 to AU-20 to define them all.
Russ' dollars are all definitely UNC by ANY general standard used in coins for the past 30 years. To all those who call these coins AU, please bring me yours and I will pay you strong AU-58 money for all of them. For what it's worth of the over 100 mint state coins I own, not one would qualify as UNC by these standards. I guess I was just buying plastic without knowing it all these years.
Comments
They'll be going in either Monday or Tuesday.
Stman,
Sorry, I didn't mean to ruin your content.
Russ, NCNE
I'm a grumpy old time hardcore tech grader and I call the 87 unc.
It fits most of the diagnostics for wear but circulation would show on the cheek and in the field with the same gray color also, instead of just in the hair. You'll find this on a lot of Morgans though not as severe as this. Look at almost any Morgan graded less than 65 and you will see some discoloration and breaks in the patina over the ear and in the hair without precluding the MS grade.
That was the first picture.
I'll not disagree too strongly with stman & K6AZ when they say AU because the second picture Russ posted makes it look a lot more like a circulated coin.
<< <i>Sorry, I didn't mean to ruin your content >>
Hey no problem, doesn't ruin my content. And doesn't change any of my opinions. I've learned something on your thread.
However, the reverse is untoned that does fit NT traits. You mentioned a bath of sorts, would not that also effect the reverse?
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
Just MHO
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
morris <><
** I would take a shack on the Rock over a castle in the sand !! **
Don't take life so seriously...nobody gets out alive.
ALL VALLEY COIN AND JEWELRY
28480 B OLD TOWN FRONT ST
TEMECULA, CA 92590
(951) 757-0334
www.allvalleycoinandjewelry.com
The 85-o w/the print appears to have rim damage on the reverse as mnmcoin pointed out....
As for the 87p......It appears to be wear to me also......don't know about the toning....
Russ,
Keep us updated on the results......will be interesting.
Check out my PQ selection of Morgan & Peace Dollars, and more at:
WWW.PQDOLLARS.COM or WWW.GILBERTCOINS.COM
Seems to add emphasis to the point of how unreliable online images can be. Imagine if there were thousands of dollars difference from AU to MS63; how much would bids be affected between image 1 and image 2.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
Submission landed at NGC yesterday (05.01). Yours hit yet?
Russ, NCNE
Russ' dollars are all definitely UNC by ANY general standard used in coins for the past 30 years. To all those who call these coins AU, please bring me yours and I will pay you strong AU-58 money for all of them. For what it's worth of the over 100 mint state coins I own, not one would qualify as UNC by these standards. I guess I was just buying plastic without knowing it all these years.
roadrunner