How many (or few) have to exist for a coin to be considered 'rare'?

Singapore

I think its something like 25, but then I note that there are 8,000 1909-S VDBs slabbed by PCGS and NGC. even if something like 2,000 of those were resubmissions it seems like a lot.

tradedollarnut

Rarity in relation to demand is usually what defines "rare" in the colloquial sense. Thus, any coin can be thought of as rare, just as truly rare coins can be cheap as dirt.

EVillageProwler

The '93-S Morgan is rare to Morgan aficionados, but is common as sin compared to what I'm into.

EVP

Nic

Congrat.'s EVP! K

Singapore

Hey EVP - I hesitate to ask, but what are you 'into'?

EVillageProwler

What am I into? On the matter of coins, I am into Seated and Bust material (mostly dollars). In UNC grades, the '93-S is about as populous as the '72, which is extremely common for a Seated dollar.

Beyond coins, you'll have to let me know if you want the adult version or just the G stuff...

EVP

tradedollarnut

Thai?

CalGold

At least one.

CG

Singapore

This thread has taken a dramatic non-numismatic turn. Nice.

EVillageProwler

Sorry, Singapore, for hijacking your thread.

TDN is correct in noting that "rarity" is a relative term. As a collector, I'm a contrarian buyer. When I got tired of seeing case after case of Morgans, I decided it was time to pursue pre-Morgans. I'm glad I did, 'cuz my ED's have realized a very healthy profit for me. Now that ED's are hot, I'm venturing elsewhere!

EVP

PS Yes, I like Thai "food"...

tradedollarnut

In describing rarity, the word RARE will generally mean that 31 to 75 pieces are believed to exist. VERY RARE will indicate 13 to 30 pieces, EXTREMELY RARE will indicate 4-12 pieces, EXCESSIVELY RARE means three or fewer and of course UNIQUE means that one exists.

coinkat

As TDN correctly pointed out, rarity is a relative term. Demand tends to influence rarity, however, it is a double edge sword in that in the world of coins, there has to be enough to promote...sorry for being alittle blunt, but it is true. There are several rare coins that continue to be underappreciated and most likey always will for this reason.

09sVDB

It's not how many, its the old capitalistic term "supply and demand." To take it one step further there's also condition rarity.

Max

I am beginning to think "supply and demand" have no basis in coin collecting.

The 1909 S VDB with 8,000 slabbed is 2x the mintage of say the 1889 $10. An AU58 with a pop of 40/62 sold for $1200 and a MS62 with a pop of 6/0 went for $2,800 last month at Heritage.

Even a pop top gold, over 100 yrs old and not being minted anymore is selling for a song. Why are these coins not more valuable.

EVP's Seated $ example is also very relevent. How many cases of Lincoln, Indians, Morgans, Franklins, etc. do you see at a show? Think about how many Seated dollars you see or low pop/mint gold.

While hundreds are chasing pop top Mercs, Franklins, Washingtons, Jeffs, Walkers, etc. true rare coins go begging.

Gilbert

It depends on which "scale" you are using. Many people throught the term around. QD Bowers devised a scale URS (Universal Rarity Scale) and it is used in the CPG.

URS-0 None known
URS-1 One known, Unique, 2 - two known, 3 - 3 or 4 known, 4 - 5 to 8, 5 - 9 to 16, 6 - 17 to 32, 7 - 33 to 64 and so on (can provide if needed)

Then there is a R(arity) Factor used in the Vam Book and elsewhere:
R1 Common (10s of millions)
R2 Not so Common (several million)
R3 Scarce (hundreds of thousands)
R4 Very Scarce (tens of thousands)
R5 Rare (thousands)
R6 Very Rare (several hundred)
R7 Extremely Rare (few tens)
R8 Unique or Nearly unique (1 to several)

I imagine there are others. I guess the point is to make sure whomever you're speaking with is using the same scale.

barberlover

I've been reading this thread with great interest, especially about the "relative term rare"

My 3 most rare coins are; 1. an 1892 S Barber half in p.c.g.s. 66, 2. an 1884 p.c.g.s. 66 seated quarter, and no. 3. is a 1914 proof buffalo nickle in proof 67. What do i mean the buffalo is rare ???
Of course it's not! Neither is the 1893 S morgan or the 1932 d washinton quarter, Do you see what i'm getting at ?

When i baught these 3 coins in seperate transactions in 2001 i only baught them because they were outstanding coins for the grade, no crystal ball telling me what will be hot.

The 92 S half is not a rare date by mintage with just over a million pieces minted, in fact, there are almost 100,000 more minted then the 1892 P, but the survival rate in mint state is much rarer for the S mint barber 92 then the P mint making it a "condition rareity"

The 1884 seated quarter in m.s. 66 is the 4th lowest mintage for the entire series including several rare cc dates and the 1886 with the 84 only having about 8800 plus minted, yet it was saved by the collectors of the time because of the low mintage of buisness strikes in the 1880's, so thats a relativly available date in mint state.

The proof 1914 nickle in proof 67 is the most commonly preserved of the matte proof nickles between 1913 and 1916, yet of the 3 coins i purchased a few years ago, the nickle is the only one thats gone up in value.

Rareity is not determined by mintage alone, its also determined by demand versus supply. But it sure is puzzling to me why some coins that are not rare or even scarce have risen in value over the last few years [like 32 d washinton quarters and proof buffalo nickles] while some truely rare coins have stayed the same or even dropped in value. Les

coinlieutenant

This is a great topic and thread. I agree with EVP in some regards. It is always nice to focus on undervalued pieces. The real question that you have to ask yourself though, is what is the demand for those undervalued pieces and will that demand ever change.

For example (and nobody hold this against me in the upcoming heritage auction), there is a PCGS Proof 64DCAM 1862 Gold Dollar up for sale right now. This coin has a mintage of 35 pieces with Breen indicating less than 20 survive. Now, a common proof gold dollar is greysheet at 4200 in 64. These coins had mintages in the thousands!! The 1862 has a mintage of 35 and is greysheet bid at 6700!!! From a pure rarity standpoint this is a steal!! However, I dont see too much tremendous upside in this coin from an investment value. Why? Because how many people do you know that collect proof gold dollars by date? I know of one. There is no market pressure on the date. Therefore, the type collectors add the pressure and they would rather pay for a common coin at 4200 than a rare one at 6700. Just the way the market goes.

Now I want the 1862 because I dont really care if I dont make any money at all. I love the rarity and the ego trip that I could own one of twenty in the world. I want it because for a coin like that, you have to be a true collector and realize that you are holding something truly rare for a decent price.

For another example I do have a PCGS Proof 64CAM 1857 Seated Quarter. Mintage of 40, Less than 15 estimated extant. It is also the only Cameo graded and is blast white, not dipped out, with hard mirrors. Greysheet is 4500!! Again, the type collectors do not pressure the date, but it is almost as rare as the gold dollar but 40% cheaper? Why, there is even less pressure on silver than gold. I dont know why. Maybe it is because it is impossible to have a proof date set of seated quarters so no one even wants to start.

My opinion, load up on coins like this, you might not make alot of money but I dont think that you will lose either. Unless you are worried about losing that 1% interest from your savings account...

originalisbest

The rareified examples quoted should perhaps be worth more, even much more than they are - proof classic gold, rare-date Seated and Bust material, etc. But perhaps those that can afford them in the first place at today's levels should be grateful they aren't priced at the level they "really" should be! That said, no one would ever catch me paying better than 50,000 for a condition-rarity (ha!) Lincoln memorial cent. The '69-S doubled die is quite different, but then, if I lucked onto one of those, I'd sell it to someone who'd appreciate it better than I.

Back in the realm of the joe-average to serious collector (me) without a limitless bankroll, the key dates which are "rare" only relative to their common-date brethren enjoy price increases due partly to promotion - and to the fact that collectors enjoy completing a set of something. Thus when comparing sets of Washington Quarters or Mercury dimes or what have you, the keys are often missing and when the collector gets them in problem-free shape, it's a feather in their cap, a sense of accomplishment.

This works out well for someone like myself who enjoys both key date coinage in the popular "modern" series', as well as classic type. Since the people who hope to actually complete entire sets of classic material are few and far between, there tends to be very little date pressure in regard to getting a scarcer piece for a great deal more than the most common of the type. The price of an 1875-P or 1875-CC 20¢ compared to an 1875-S is an excellent example of this.

There's no need to begrudge why different people choose to collect within different eras of coins, or even different groups of collectibles. But if you want to make money at it, it's somewhat worthwhile to know why the trends tend to fall the way they do.

joejeweler

"Unique" is also a popular Pistol cartridge reloading gunpowder, which i reloaded with during my competing years. Rare in one context........common as state quarters in another!



<< <i>In describing rarity, the word RARE will generally mean that 31 to 75 pieces are believed to exist. VERY RARE will indicate 13 to 30 pieces, EXTREMELY RARE will indicate 4-12 pieces, EXCESSIVELY RARE means three or fewer and of course UNIQUE means that one exists. >>

ursabear

GREAT THREAD!

I'm split on this one... part of me says rarity is numbers in existence. The other says, rarity is demand/supply based - that is rarity of availability.

I do think it is interesting just how much desparity there is in the cost-to-survival ratio of coins.

Conder101

<< <i>I'm split on this one... part of me says rarity is numbers in existence. The other says, rarity is demand/supply based - that is rarity of availability. >>


RARITY is numbers in existance, PRICE or VALUE is demand /supply based. The very rare pieces mentioned also have a high "rarity of availablity" but they don't have the demand and so what seem to be low prices.