What's up with the color on this Indian Head Cent???

DMWJR

Green hues around the periphery, and rose on the feathers . . .

dorkkarl

assuming true digi-pic colors, looks like slightly premium album toning. i like it. are those planchet laminations left of the chin area?

K S

DMWJR

Karl, here is the punch line (I guess . . .) Look at the lamination . . . . and the date!




Has anyone seen this coin before? You have to rotate it to see the color clearly. That's why the coin is not flat.

jonesy

Still a sharp specimen. Nice!!
Glenn

dorkkarl

holy quacamole!!!

i'll take 2, & you can keep the change!!!

K S

ccrdragon

slobber, slobber, drool!

shylock

Doug -- that's a wild 1877. The marks look like clash marks (the outline of the wreath) that are common for the date but very uncommon that pronounced. Your coin?

DMWJR

Yes, it's my coin. I bought it raw (OMG!!!) from a local dealer. I've been scratching my head over it for about a year and a half. If you lay the coin flat for a picture, you see almost no color, and it looks just like a regular brown. The impression looks to jagged to me to be a clash, and I thought it was a lamination.

I really don't know what to do with it. I have bought an 1877 NGC 66rb since then. I wouldn't want to sell it to anyone unless they knew what they were buying. I don't even know to tell you the truth. I thought I might send it to ANACS since it is a "problem" coin, and maybe they could at least tell me what is going on with it.

Cents with color are not my bag, and I don't know squat about artificial toning. So anyway I thought I would ask here if anyone had any opinions on the color, and the lamination. I even thought someone might remember seeing this coin in the past, since it is not one you forget easily.

dorkkarl

i like it. it's a keeper in some ways, but not for a high-grade set.

K S

BlueCole

i've got a cent form the 50's that looks like that--purple's and green's. and you can't see it unless you tilt the coin. PM wayneherndon about it, he could tell you what's going on.

B.

PS, this is 600!!!

shylock

What you see of the clash is actually the area that surrounds the wreath -- the fields of the reverse are raised since the design is now incuse -- which is why it has a jagged look to it. Here's an 1864 whose clash doesn't reach as low but is similar:



Indian Heads stored in envelopes can acquire colors similar to this. Stewart Blay's 1871 PCGS MS65 has some light envelope toning, but you never know what the services will do with toned copper. I own an 1882 PCGS 65RB with green and rose toning, the transluscent type that disappears head on. Your 1877 may be a very original coin even if it never gets slabbed. I like it.

DMWJR

hmmm . . . your 1864 looks VERY similar in the pattern of the clash as my 1877. I never considered that it could be a clash, but you have certainly shown me that it could be. I just thought it was a defective planchet.


The color also looks VERY similar to the 1882!

Boy am I glad I asked the question!

jeffnpcb

Looks like a natural reaction of a copper alloy to the environment. Live on the Gulf coast of Fla., and if copper doesn't turn a green hue, I start to worry! Alot of moderns with any copper alloy looks like crap if exposed to a salt air or high moisture area.

shylock

Doug -- the 1864 I linked was from a Heritage auction (I have a bunch of images filed of obverse 1864 clashes in varying stages). I can't recall seeing an 1877 with as strong obverse clash marks as yours. But 77's are known for their reverse clashes and it makes sense that some would show them boldly on the obverse as well.

Here's a coin that embodies both your coin's attributes. This 1864 w/L is from Goldberg's recent Long Beach sale. It's graded NGC MS66BN and shows the inner border of the wreath clash (yours is the outer border) as well as some wild toning:

DMWJR

I'm getting a real education about this. Tonight when I get home I'll try to take a better picture of the "clash" part of the obverse, and a pic of the reverse as well. When I took these two photos, I was attempting show the color, but not necessarily the "clash."

You are so right thought, the pattern of the clash is extremely similar to the ones you are posting. I think I'm getting excited about this coin all over again.

shylock

It's tough to describe clashed dies since they're opposite in every way to the design we're use to seeing. They're upside down and the low areas become the relief areas, real brain teasers. I had a vague understanding of them until forum member Lakesammman -- who really has become an Indian cent scholar -- finally set me straight. The best way to explain them is through illustration so here's a composite image of your coin and the area of the reverse (from Blay's 1877) that corresponds to it:



That one deep recess of the oak wreath is the clincher on your coin.

I don't care for the toning on the 1864 w/L I linked but I like yours, it retains most of its copper color with more subtle acquired color blended in. Like yourself the big spenders in this series look for that full red look without distracting clashes. But there's a strong market for a nice, raw 1877 with a good strike that has the character and authenticity traits yours has. I'd like to see more images, including the reverse. It likely has some of the reverse clashes imaged here.

toothpuller

Paul,

Thanks for the clear explanation. Is the circular mark on the face and neck of the 77 part of the clash? I can't seem to picture how it would be.

It is a pretty neat coin Doug. Thanks for posting.

DMWJR

ToothP: The circular mark is a light scratch.

After looking closely at the reverse, there are clash marks consistent from the lower portion of the obverse in the upper area of the fields near the shield (Liberty's neck and back of hair). It appears to have clashed twice as that there are two sets of identical marks very close together. I can't seem to get the pictures right. I'm still struggling with taking these kinds of digital pictures.

Funny, I instantly notice clash marks on Morgans because I look at them all of the time, but my untrained eye skipped right over this possibility on this coin.

I am still confused by the area next to the U in United. Nothing on the reverse there to leave clash marks. At least I think some of the mysteries of this coin have been revealed.

Paul, thanks for the neat pictures. I wish I had your skills with a camera.

Tonelover

I am still confused by the area next to the U in United. Nothing on the reverse there to leave clash marks.

Doug, that area appears to be a little planchet lamination that flaked off.