How can a Morgan $1 be both DMPL and toned?

BASEagle

How can a Morgan $1 be both DMPL and toned?

There was an earlier thread regarding “Monster Toned DMPL Morgans” and how rare they are. I don’t understand how they can exist at all. The concepts of “toned” and “deep mirror proof like” seem contradictory.

This is from the textbook definition of “Deep Mirror Proof Like” from the PCGS Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection page 67: “The surfaces must have clear reflectivity at a distance of six inches with no distortion caused by striations or frost.”

The ANA Correspondence Course “Grading Mint State US Coins” discusses DMPL on pages 23 and 24 and includes a photo of a Morgan held up to a newspaper and how to measure reflectivity. I’ve personally never seen a Morgan with the reflectivity of the coin in the photo. It’s like a modern proof. These must be extremely rare.

I ran a search on ebay for Morgans “PCGS DMPL” and it returned 21 coins. I pulled up all of them and with the usual yada yada about grading coins from photos, none of them appeared to have six inches of reflectivity. Also ran a search on Heritage and it returned 2 coins. Same story.

So, are DMPLs a market grading type of concept? In other words, a fiction acknowledged by all?

And, back to my original question – how can a coin have both toning and a mirror surface?


Mike

nwcs

Why can't they? I've seen a couple and I don't imagine anyone would question their DMPL surfaces. But it is very difficult to get a service to give a DMPL designation to a toned coin. Hence the rarity of them.

MrEureka

How can a Morgan $1 be both DMPL and toned?

At the same time?

Dog97

That's an easy ? to answer. The reflected newspaper will have a color similiar to the color of the toning.
As far as eBay DMPLs-You can't gauge reflectability from a scan or picture. Now this is coming from me who claims to be able to judge a coin from a scan in spite of what all the dealers say. You can gauge strike, marks, color & grade but not the mirrors from a scan.
Another thing about eBay DMPLs-All the nice ones are already stashed away in some collectors safe and rarely come on the market. The ones you see on eBay, TeleTrade, coin rags, etc are the junky just made DMPLs that nobody really wants.

boz

Dog,
I respectfully disagree with you. Experience with scans, and photos you can generally tell whether to take a chance by the "color" of the fields in a DMPL. Also checking the cameo appearance is a good factor to go "buy". (pun intended) Sight seen is the best way, but I have bought some most fantatic DMPLs just from scans or photos. Knowlege in the photographic field is very important when buying sight unseen.

boz

Dog again,
I could show you some DMPLs that would make your tail wag that were picked from judging the photo only. And some were not the best photos you could expect.

boz

Here is one that convinced me to drive 720 miles roundtrip to purchase.

michael

well rare coins

and i am sure they exist but the mirrors

would still have to be all there to qualify for dmpl status

then if the coin is cameoed strongly cameoed and has tremendous eye appeal i would say you gots a coin in this mARKET THAT IS SALEABLE quickly for strong money

sincerely michael

Dog97

That's a nice coin boz.
I feel comfortable in saying that is a 65. That's easy to see from the nice strike and minimial amount of marks.
I wouldn't feel comfortable in saying that it is in fact a DMPL because I really can't tell if it reflects to 4" or 6" or where. It may be just a PL example.
So I respectfully disagree with you too.
Going by the cam contrast and the quality of the field that I can see, I can say it's probably DMPL but if it were toned I would be even less certian of declaring it DMPL from a picture.
Course if I had it in hand I could tell you in about 3 seconds with 100% accuracy.

islemangu

Its struck just after the basining polish and goes in a bag or stored another way like regular morgans and gets toned. Whats so impossible about that?
It is so hard to tell from photo or scan the real look of proofs or PLs. What if these sellers put the usual scans and photos but also a little movie clip to show the reflexitivity?
This is a common issue NGC 81-S MS 65 PL but with an uncommon look of needle strike with 100 % toned a lustrous sheet of rose/gold. Would this help in a typical on-line transaction or is the resolution bad, shacky and a waste of time?


15 seconds of NGC 81-S MS65 PL Toned



My ebay auction(s)

islemangu

Sorry I could not get the movie to work above let try one more time below
2nd try of PL morgan clip

griffin6

A DMPL coin is like an island surrounded by a deep lake. Based on the look of the surface, you can both see and sense the relative depth. Obviously, like clear water, an untoned mirror will project the greatest depth, but color in either will not necessarily impede the view or sense of depth.

On the other hand, color would and could diminish the degree of cameo contrast between fields and devices.

NumisEd

islemangu, that was cool. Thanks!

PS - I think that a Morgan dollar can be both toned and DMPL at teh same time. I have seen it several times.

Dog97

>>>>>Toning does NOT subdue the mirrors on a real DMPL>>>>>
I would say that if a Morgan orginally struck with DMPL qualities lays up in the mint sack long enough and tones heavily enough that by the time the sack is opened the mirrors could have lost enough depth to be reduced to merely PL without reaching a point where it would be considered enviromentally damaged.
Just my opinion, I really can't back that up.

islemangu

I agree somewhat, the mirrors are there but the toning on the surface blocks it from the viewer. The degree of toning makes it more difficult to percieve the presence of DMPL/DPL. the depth of the seas have algae at the surface.