If you were in charge of a $50,000,000 rare coin fund, what or which coins would you place in it?

SethChandler

Would you focus on having vast quantities of scarce coins.....Gem Proof Gold for example? Or would you have complete sets of the finest known collections?

Remember, YOU are the portfolio manager, so the money has to be managed effectively with a direction.

Let's throw in a rule to make it interesting.....the money must be spent within one year(liquidation starts in ten years), therefore you have to make things happen.

Also, would you contact the owners of great collections and make outrageous offers? J-1776? TDN's set of Trade Dollars, Jack Lee's Morgans, etc.

Who would you hire as your advisors?

airplanenut

I would probably find coins that are scarce in any grade, then in the highest grade available- coins that will be in demand no matter what- a collection might also be cool, but I'd probably move to many series'.

Jeremy

dan1ecu

I would diversify. This is especially important if it's meant as an investment. I'd probably try to put together the highest quality, most complete type set possible.

Dan

coingallery2

$50 mil? Corner the market on 20 cent US Type coins

airplanenut

<< <i>$50 mil? Corner the market on 20 cent US Type coins >>

I'd corner the market on modern MS/PR70s

supercoin

Buy out the entire mintage of some new 2003 Commemorative, publicly melt 75% of them, and sell the remaining 25% at 8x issue price on eBay to desperate collectors.

Double your money on the sales, and pay for the eBay fees with the melted ones. Ka-ching!

michael

proof and ms 65 66 67 68 type coins with super unusual qualities and really one of a kind underapprecaited coins that seem to me personally to be great values or at least good values

now i am sure there are others that i will not mention but here are some of my picks as below

coins!! with fantastic monster eye appeal high end for the grade ngc pcgs some rare exceptions for anx coins


monster toned semi better date gem ms barber quarters dimes

gem ms 65 original thick skinned white barber halves so called common dates

original wildly toned gem early commems or like really eye appealling gem superb gem commems

no brainer sleeper undervalued totally buy me super value coins like seated halfdime legend obverse series in superb gem mintstate monster toned one of a kind pieces with tremendous eye appeal

o mint cc mint dmpl dollars that have the right look and are extremely high end for the grade and monster eye appeal blast white or lightly toned 64 that is really a 65 in a 64 holder and nice 65/high end 65 coins pcgs!! ONLY maybe ngc but that would be more the exception rather than the rule

also prooflike dollars better dates blast white in 63 64 65 63 as long as it is a 64 in a 63 pl holder and there are not many if any above 63 in dmpl like say the 94-s for example

any fully original cinci sets in hem ms 65 and higher pcgs only

any 1937 superb gem and higher proof sets with all the coins being original together since they left the mint in 1937 and also neatly toned from the mint cello pcgs!!

1936 satin proof buffs superb gem proof but rainbow toned pcgs ngc wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

pre 1835 silver coins ms 64 65 never dipped with thick skins and iridescent toning rim toning never dipped one in a million coins well if you are looking and go to every show you might see a handful a year

superb gem proof or ms 1889 nickels one of the worst made lib nickels for the entire series and also neatly to superbly originally toned! ngc pcgs RARE rare~~~~


ANY monster toned gem/superb gem proof indian cent brown---red brown!!!!! with wild colors ngc pcgs

or just a neat looking proof 67 rb with a cameo look to it and neat toning bullseye

any superb gem proof monster toned three cent nickel or those highest grade ones 67/68 deep ice blue with some rose in the fields in proof the 1885 would be one of the better dates like this a real sleeper!


ultra cameo superb gem proof seated dimes blast white wirh a monster look to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

monster proof 67 ms 67 really monster toned original seated dimes or ms 67 thick skinned original never dipped white seated dimes better dates even much better like the monster underrated 1878 dime!!!!


superb gem proof barber dimes cameo/near miss deep cameo 1912 to 1915 the ultimate in rarity for a proof barber dime as i do not think any real ultra cameos exist but who knows??


gem proof real deep cameo barber quarters after 1900 ngc pcgs

any monster toned lusterous red olive green barber dimes in gem ms red!!!!!! wow wild rare!

the lowest pop in gem proof legend obv. seated 1862 dime in gem 65 proof but exceptionally toned!

a rainbow toned lusterous never dipped thick skinned superb gem ms 66 key to the short set 1941-s walker pcgs ngc monsta!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! close to one of a kind

i guess the list could go on and on

oh and also any deeply mirrored superb gem monster toned liberty nickel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

sincerely michael










sincerely michael

ElectricEye

I'd pick on one type of coin and create a scarcity...

construct

Common keys, as high grade as possible and as many as you could get your hands on--you know, like 1932-D and -S quarters, 1885 nickels, 1916-D dimes would be the start. That wouldn't begin to touch the $50M mark though.

I have a hard time thinking in those sums.

If you want undervalued then go for half dimes, shield nickels, 3¢ nickels, that sort of thing. Of course, who knows when the market will open up for them?

roadrunner

dorkkarl

why, certified coins, of course! are there any other types of coins?

K S

roadrunner

The core of the fund should be buying what's not yet hot, but underrated. The core should be in 1808-1916 US Coinage and shying away from areas where the registries have inflated the price structures. Don't forget about patterns, foreign, exonumia, medals, tokens, colonials, paper currency, etc. It's a big numismatic world and great values also lie in areas outside standard US Coinage. Buy great coins for the individual grades. No reason why a monster AU or 63 piece couldn't be part of such a fund but the core would be in MS/PF 65-67 coinage. While Michael's preference to monster toned and original skinned coins is admirable, I don't think you'd ever find enough to make it significant. Excellent examples would be good enough.

I think dated bust, Barber, seated, 19th century nickel coinage, classic commems, and Morgans for example would be a great price to start as well as type coins. For maximum leverage I would stick mainly to coins in the $500-$15,000 price range. A significant rarity in the $20-100K range could be considered
too if it showed good potential. Finding someone with the extensive knowledge and contacts to run this fund would be challenging.

roadrunner

MrEureka

I'd buy completely original solid grade 19th century proof type in 64-67. (All denominations, all metals.) I would not hesitate to pay significant premiums over "bid". (Reason - Within ten years, technology will help buyers differentiate between original and less original coins. Because most of these coins are less than completely original, the premium for originality will soar.) I would NOT pay huge premiums for color. (Reason - Current premiums have little upside.)

I'd be a very strong buyer of some patterns. There are others I wouldn't consider. (Too complicated to explain now.)

There are some major collections of colonials that might be buyable and a good ten year hold. I'd take a shot at those. (Reason - The market is already in a strong long term uptrend, with no signs of letting up. I'd ride the trend.)

I'd be a very strong buyer of high end world coins. (Reasons - They're cheap and the world is quickly becoming a much smaller place. In other words, foreign coin are getting less foreign.)

I would fill warehouses with low mintage modern foreign proof sets, mint sets and commems, including many Franklin Mint issues. (Dirt cheap garbage today, but markets will develop. These would be my top pick, believe it or not.)

RYK

Who would you hire as your advisors?

Interesting that no one tackeld that part of the question. I can honestly say that I would have no idea how to allocate $50 million into coins. On my own, I would no doubt squander the money.

The first thing I would do is hire a panel of experts as advisors. Perhaps, I would make one or more of these experts a partner in the endeavor, or otherwise incent the advisors, so they would be truly committed to the success of the fund. I have no idea where the money would be allocated--it would be where the experts guide me.

tradedollarnut

Hmmm - I'd buy everything that tradedollarnut guy has in his collection at a 100% markup!

Julian

Seth
The concept is very exciting, but the drawback is the absolute day of liquidation. I would not and have not participated in anything that has that provision.

If that were eliminated, I would focus on certain series, and build world class collections of those. It may be patterns, early coins, pioneer gold, or colonials.

As Stewart correctly states, this cannot be a publicly known project.

If money were no object and there were no time constraints (attn: Bill Gates), either on purchase or disposition, I would put together the greatest collection of US coins ever, from colonials thru pioneer, including patterns. In other words, Eliasberg expanded. I would not care if the public knew or not, better quiet, but not critical enough to halt the project.

Also, they would not need to be encapsulated.

Fantasies are great!!

bumpy

!WOW! 5 billion unsearched wheat cents L@@K!

LincolnCentMan

As picky as I am, it would be difficult for me to spend 50M on coins within a year. However, I would concentrate on buying finest known/near finest known key dates. I would probably purchase a few ultra-rarities. I would also concider building finest of all time set of something so the owner would have that feather for his/her cap. I'm not sure there are many sets for which that could be done in only the space of a year, however... even with such funds availible.

David

Max

Doesn't Spectrum Numismatics do these kinds of deals?

MrEureka

If you were in charge of a $50,000,000 rare coin fund, what or which coins would you place in it?

Since the plan is to hold ten years, maybe I'll take $5-10 million and buy a pile of cleaned coins, keep them in Wayte Raymond holders in the attic, and let them retone naturally. I'd also invest in a couple of Dobermans to guard the house.

CLASSICS

all of the great american classics from 1792-1933.

09sVDB

As many of the keys /in all of the series /in the highest possible certified grade

cladking

I wouldn't recommend investing any money in coins but if you twisted my arm and made
me answer this question then I'd say buy moderns. Anything made after 1964 has been
getting a lot of attention and this is likely to continue for some time. A modern with the
comparable rarity of a classic sells for a tiny fraction of the price. You may not live long
enough to see parity, but one must assume that when the trends are all going in the
right direction the smart money will be with the trends.

SethChandler

OK.....I got a few PM's from people to answer my own question. So here goes:

An acceptable average annual return over the long haul would be between 12% to 15%. You could raise alot of money if you delivered those kind of results with below average volatility. Therefore, my main focus would be ultra rarities. 1804 Dollars, 1894-S Dimes, 1927-D Twenty, Brasher Doubloons, 1885 Trade Dollar,and the like. The primary reason is as a whole, this group has CONSISTANTLY delivered solid returns. I'm sure if you did an analisys you would find that each major rarity had an avg return of at LEAST a high single digit return......most likely 10 to 12%. And this is regardless of the type of economy that we are in. Wars, poor stock markets, high unemployment......these coins always post a +return. When I first seriously started to collect in the late 80's a nice 1804 Dollar was 250k to 300k today its 1.5mm, 1894-S dime was 150k, today its 500 to 700k. The 1913 V Nickel that Reed Hawn purchased for 300k + change, sold for nearly TRIPLE that just 7/8 years after he bought it. What's it worth today?(TDN?) $2 million??? Another nice thing about ultra rarities.......grade is almost irrelevant. Almost. Take a 1876-CC 20 cent piece, they traded as one in the same 15+ years ago, now what's the grading spread?, most are MS64/65, big deal. Its the coin, not the state of preservation.

Then I would also have a segment for "undervalued" coins, or pieces that would continue to be recognized througout time.....Gem Type, Proof Gold, Etc.
And I'm gonna change one rule(the most important one) you've got 3 to 5 yrs to acquire the portfolio....because that is what I would need!

muenzen

I would seek high grade keys from the popular 20th century sets to include Barbers and IH cents.

muenzen

<< <i>I wouldn't recommend investing any money in coins but if you twisted my arm and made
me answer this question then I'd say buy moderns. Anything made after 1964 has been
getting a lot of attention and this is likely to continue for some time. A modern with the
comparable rarity of a classic sells for a tiny fraction of the price. You may not live long
enough to see parity, but one must assume that when the trends are all going in the
right direction the smart money will be with the trends. >>




What modern has the comparable rarity of a classic? For example 484,000 for the 09Svdb and 52,000 for the 16 quarter; sure, you have a 1995 "special" SE with a lower mintage, or some matte finish moderns with low mintages, but lets face it, all, or pretty much all, of these are still around. How many of the 16 quarters, with their wear problem of the date, are still around? How many are still around in MS-65? Now, that is a scarce coin. PCGS PR 67 DCAM 2002 (whatever state) silver quarter? Still alot of those have yet to be graded. Just how scarce are they? How many of them actually left the mint with less than a PR 65 grade?

Trime

There is something strange about this thread.
If you read carefully on this forum you come to the following conclusions:
Collectable coins have a significant following, cost and some marketability.
Most people even the pure collectors dream of increasing value of their purchases.
Most collectors and even many dealers acknowledge that coins are not a very competitive investment.
Many collectors and even some dealers acknowledge that if you would buy and hold that breaking even is an accomplishment.
Most believe that if you bought the finest examples of a rare coin that the chances of future gain in value would be greater;
these coins are rare by definition.
So, why do you think that spending $50000000 buying coins at large markups over present prices ( see discussion in this thread) makes any sense? This was tried before and is apparently ongoing now and will be promoted again. The idea is to boaden the base of investors into the coin market; to create liquidity for dealers; to encourage other funds to be created increase the frenzy of competive buying and drive prices up. This is an effort to create a bubble. I would sell into this virtual frenzy. Unless someone could convince me that this time the world is diffefent, I would not be an investor into this fund.
Now if I was contacted by an experienced dealer or a small group of dealers that I had good reason to trust and they were looking for a small goup of partners to invest in a business to buy very select coins that were believed to be underappreciated or have great potential ( for whatever reason), I could imagine some potential. They would have a developed client list, and access to inventory. However, my experience in such matters is " If the opportunity is so good , why do they need my money?".
GOOD LUCK!

cladking

<< <i>What modern has the comparable rarity of a classic? >>



There was a thread the other day about rare coins made after 1964. Many very
desirable and scarce coins were left off because they didn't quite fit the question
asked by the originator. The estimated mintage of the 1982(p) dime, for instace is
just 10,000. This is a really neat coin that can still be found in circulation despite
a nearly 5% attrition rate. Yet, this coin can be purchased for as little as about $50.
A comparable Lincoln from the early years would go far higher.

Trime

Laura,
Tell us more about the Delaware Alliance and the soon to be developed new fund.

General questions:
How much impact will the new money have on the price of coins?
What are their stated strategies?
Are they now only building inventory or also selling?
Do they hold the coins or act as a banker for selected dealers?

Legend questions
Do you presently or plan to interact with these funds?
Are you or would you like to be a principal or investor in this Alliance?
How will this impact on your type of business?

griffin6

The interesting aspect of a $50 million dollar fund is not so much in the buying, but in the selling. Most people do not realize what a thin market rare coins is in relationship to almost any other market. $50 mil will SIGNIFICANTLY MOVE any area of the market, so diversification is mandatory to keep from overly pushing up prices while the fund is buying its position. The same is true if the fund reaches a point where it is time to dissolve. Any rapid effort would cut the legs out from under the whole market, so should astute fund managers be faced with that prospect, they would have to be very circumspect in the process.

Anyway, I would buy key date collector coins across the board despite the run up that's been going on for the last year. Softer economy notwithstanding, there are still five years to run on the States Quarters Program, more and more baby boomers are reaching peak earning levels and returning to childhood collecting interests, and the supply is legitimately thin enough to sustain continued upward movement.