Lawyers here, i want your advice on a coin related matter. update with thankyou to most and responce

barberlover

You can either respond here or pm me.

I am trying to plan for all possible outcomes in my current financial situation, including in a worst case scenario possible bankruptcy.

My father who is not an attorney told me that bancruptcy would protect us from losing our home and my retirement account and might even protect whats left of my coin collection. Is there any truth in what my father said ? Les

stman

I'm no Lawyer, but I know if I had to file.......... They wouldn't hear about no coin collection.

MrEureka

I know that you can protect your home in some states, but not many. (Florida is one.) I don't know about the retirement accounts. Wish I could tell you more.

Max

With that big a decision on the line why are you seeking legal advice here? See a lawyer.

joejeweler

Bankruptcy is never easy, but i remember hearing/reading that US coins are NOT required to be listed on as asset listing at "market" value! Seems "face" value is suffecient since they ARE legal tender! Might be a good way to keep your remaining collection intact!

Any lawyers familiar with the specifics?
Joe T




<< <i>You can either respond here or pm me.

I am trying to plan for all possible outcomes in my current financial situation, including in a worst case scenario possible bankruptcy.

My father who is not an attorney told me that bancruptcy would protect us from losing our home and my retirement account and might even protect whats left of my coin collection. Is there any truth in what my father said ? Les >>

wayneherndon

You really need to seek the assistance of a local attorney. Bankruptcy laws vary from state-to-state and there is no substitution for the give and take of a discussion with an attorney versed in the laws of your state and made aware of your specific situation.

Generally speaking, bankruptcy laws do provide protection of certain necessities and sometimes varying amounts of personal possessions. Homesteads are typically protected but the presence of a mortgage secured by the homestead becomes more complicated.

Do seek qualified local counsel and good luck with your situation.

WH

satootoko

<< <i>I'm no Lawyer, but I know if I had to file.......... They wouldn't hear about no coin collection. >>


All it takes is one creditor who knows about the unreported collection and mentions it to the U.S. Trustee, and you're on your way to looking at striped sunshine at the Greybar Hotel, for bankruptcy fraud and/or perjury (federal offenses), since the Petition is signed under oath with a statement that all property is scheduled.

Exemptions vary somewhat from State to State, but In California, New Mexico, Arizona, North and South Carolina, Texas, Virginia, Kentucky, Alabama, and the District of Columbia, where I have had occasion to deal with bankruptcy cases, only a nominal value of your collection would be exempt from creditor claims. The best legal advice you will ever get is "Consult a local attorney knowledgeable in debt relief" before you run out of options.

Wolfy00002

I have filed, and yes your home is safe up to a point. If you haven't had it homesteaded (spelling?), that is something you might want to check into. That would make it safer. Your retirement is a question, it would depend on if it is liquidable, and how much. When I filed, nothing was check out as far as if my assets were real, but you will have to list them. Then might be checked, or might not be, that depends on how much you owe, and who. <HINT>Don't you mean is your father's coin collection safe? Assets count alot, always assume they will check. The laws have gotten more strict since I filed, but from what I understand, it's still basically the same. If you can prove that you have more debt than you are able to pay, then it's not a problem. It actually made my life a whole lot easier, but I'm still only 26, so I've got time. You don't have to file on everything if you don't want to. Just some advice, hope it helps, email me if you would like have more questions.

stman

Agreed, but I still stand by my comment.

mr1931S

There is some truth in what your father said. Bankruptcy is not a do-it-yourself project, however.
Get a lawyer if you think bankruptcy is inevitable.

sinin1

I started the process a couple years ago - I remember in MN something about only 25K of equity in a home is safe - they ask for information on anything of value.

TheThing

Sell you collection to a relative for $5.00. When everything is over, buy it back for $5.00. I know in TX you home is safe. Most other states, not all, but most, it is not safe.

Max

Amazing how some are advising committing fraud. I bet they are the same ones who b itch when they get ripped for $50 on ebay.

Look at it this way, you are getting a great free ride by not paying for things you bought. Someone does have to pay and eat the loss. The right and fair thing to do is be honest. Say you are writing off $50k that's a great deal. So what if a $10k coin collection is liquidated, still a super return!

stman

Also amazing that people come on an internet coin forum asking for personal legal advice. You get what you pay for I guess.

stman

Or.... one can always resort to this. Sorry BL I know it's a tough situation for you. Just trying to lighten it up a little.

ksteelheader

Amazing how some are advising committing fraud. I bet they are the same ones who b itch when they get ripped for $50 on ebay.
Also amazing that people come on an internet coin forum asking for personal legal advice. You get what you pay for I guess.
...These are good observations.....I agree completely.....Ken

pontiacinf

I had to claim bankruptsey 11 years ago...piddly amount, about 52k...anyhow, long story short, they made me list anything of value (even life insurence policeys) and then after a 650.00 payment...poof...alll gone.....but I had no credit for many years...Now Im good for 250k+ and I also now work for Trans Union, biggest credit agencey sans none. It took only a good job for 2 years, the bankrupsey off my report...and one steadily paid bill.

10 years later, im about 23k in debt...and have 6-7 other cards each good for 7500-10k

IM NOT BRAGGING, JUST SHOWING YOU CAN REGROUP IF DONE RIGHT.

feel free to pm with questions, ill be glad to answer em.

wallstreetman

Dont waste a Bankruptsy on anything less than $300,000, they will treat you the same as filing on $30,000! Max out all the cards you can get your hands on! Take advantage of the Self Storage down the street! Yes, there are people getting rich from the Bankruptsy Laws! Drive by a Bankruptsy Court, youll see a lot of Mercedes in the parking lot! Im talking California, I cant speak for the other states!

wallstreetman

By the way, you can keep your house and have $20,000 in the bank! You can file on whatever debts you want, keep a couple cards in good standing!

jonesy

I agree with stman. What coin collection?
Glenn

Geoman

If worse case occurs, I would give/lend/borrow the remaining of your collection to a relative for "long term storage." Then 10 years down the road, you can "inherit" a collection of coins exactly like you would buy, from you relative.

Just make sure your relative or friend is a true friend!

RYK

I am with Max on this. If I bought $100,000 in coins on credit cards and had to file for bankruptcy protection for $50,000 in debt, I would first sell the coins and then see if I really needed to file. Coins, unlike a home and perhaps a car, are a luxury, not a necessity.

I guess bankruptcy is a big game to some.

DMWJR

An interesting observation from years ago when I first started practicing law. I didn't do much bankruptcy work, but had a client who had $60k in medical bills after a car wreck, and no health insurance. I put him through Chapter 7 liquidation bankruptcy. We went down for the hearing and I watched the parade of people who had also filed. After leaving the courthouse, I was passed on the highway by someone I recognized as just going through that hearing and declaring Bankruptcy. That person was driving a helluva lot nicer car than I was driving!

It's just that "something for nothing" mentality that kills me.

tradedollarnut

Max out all the cards you can get your hands on! Take advantage of the Self Storage down the street!

WSM, you just confirmed everything I already thought about your intelligence...

Barberlover - don't be stupid. Don't add the burden of fraud onto your already regretable situation. Sell the coins - they are just possessions. Isn't the ability to sleep easily far more important than any material possession?

wayneherndon

The honest way to preserve the coin collection would be to sell it at fair market value to a trusted friend or relative and then buy it back down the road when you're on your feet again. This would be a way to preserve the work and effort you've put into the set while at the same time being fair to your creditors. You may want to be selective and just do this for coins that will be hard to replace, letting go of the more common items.

WH

route66

New member- have been lurking for awhile. Interesting reading on how to get around from selling your coin collection to help pay your bills. Glad I'm not one of the people owed money.

route66

to the last reply How is it being fair to your creditors not selling your coin collection? That just leaves less money to be split up among people being owed.

wayneherndon

route66--If your question was addressed to me, note that I did not say don't sell the collection. I just said sell it to someone who will keep it intact and sell it back to you later. I also said sell it at fair market value, generating cash for the benefit of the creditors. There are certain intangibles, such as the work and joy that went into building the collection, and pleasant memories they bring back that can not be recouped in a sale. These aspects can be preserved through the method I suggested while still being fair to the creditors. Doing this pre-bankruptcy can raise some issues during the pendency of the bankruptcy and the debtor may be required to prove that full value was received in return. A way to avoid this is to have the collection sold through the bankruptcy court in a direct sale to the trusted friend through an appraisal approved by the court or consign it to auction and have your friend be prepared to be high bidder. This last approach was used by Willie Nelson to preserve much of his memorabilia with his IRS troubles. The IRS seized it and auctioned it. Friends were high bidders on most of the cherished items and Nelson bought them back later when he could afford it.

WH

MadMonk

As usual, Wayne makes perfect sense.

bumpy

What ever happened to honor, integrity, and self-responsibility? This scheming mentality is what's driving this country into the ground. It's a game to rip off the insurance companies, take advantage of the bankruptcy laws, cheat on your taxes, utilize creative accounting procedures. We all pay for it in the end. This crap makes me sick. If you gotta file bankruptcy, fine, do it, be honest about it, take your licks, get up tomorrow and be able to look at yourself in the mirror. Be a man about it and quit sniveling.

MadMonk

So the Gov't and Corporate America do everything on the up and up, and to the highest Moral principles? Always putting the consumer first? They've created the game, they lobby the various capitals, If you have to play it, you better play it, legally, and to your advantage. Furthermore, From someone I know who is very involved in all thes proceedings, they want, and need, a certain amount of these to happen as write offs. To intentionally move fwd to decieve is one thing, to preserve the well being of you and your loved ones is something else. The Gov't, with its Fiduciary Trust of our affairs, has no problem with it. Have you studied economics?

route66

Wayne,
Point well taken. I probably read too fast and missed the point about the money going to the creditors, then buying the collection back later. Sounds pretty honorable to me. Sorry for misunderstanding. But what some of the others are saying about maxing out credit cards, etc; Where does the word ethics come in?

wayneherndon

route66--Agreed, I wouldn't recommend trying to cheat the system. While bankruptcy has serious consequences to the debtor, it still favors the debtor. Wiping the slate clean on certain items is one-sided enough that debtors shouldn't try to game the system even more. Remember too that each of us could one day find ourselves on the other side of a bankruptcy (ie, being owed money by someone filing). I have twice been in that situation. Both times I was unsecured for relatively small amounts. In one instance I received full payment on my claim (around $400) in the other I got nothing on my claim (around $1000). I always suggest people think about any situation in a "what if the shoe was on the other foot" approach. That typically helps get to the right answer.

WH

tradedollarnut

My company recently got stiffed for over $200,000 on a bankruptcy. Ouch....

Furthermore, From someone I know who is very involved in all thes proceedings, they want, and need, a certain amount of these to happen as write offs

Bullchit! Sounds like a stupid urban legend to me.

oldshep

Hate to say it - but sell your coins, cut up all your credit cards and get financial counciling.
Shep

MadMonk

<< <i>My company recently got stiffed for over $200,000 on a bankruptcy. Ouch....

Furthermore, From someone I know who is very involved in all thes proceedings, they want, and need, a certain amount of these to happen as write offs

Bullchit! Sounds like a stupid urban legend to me. >>



Are you sure? Did you take economics? Why are people winning such large Lawsuits. The principle is "re-distributing the wealth" Go tell a PHD at Harvard that its Bull. It may cause your blood to boil, but it's a fact. I was amazed when my professor brought this up. I am not saying it's right, I'm saying it's the game. I feel for you If you got stiffed over $200,000.00, but I have to question how a person got into a position of being owed 200k with that much vulnerability.
It's the cost of doing business, people who can lose a lot, are known to be able to make a lot.
Dave Thomas came back with a vengeance and created Thousands of jobs. The list goes on and on.

MrEureka

I have to question how a person got into a position of being owed 200k with that much vulnerability

There are many ways to get into that position, but most of them involve having lots of customers owing you lots of money. If you never take a credit related loss, you probably aren't doing enough business.

MadMonk

<< <i>I have to question how a person got into a position of being owed 200k with that much vulnerability

There are many ways to get into that position, but most of them involve having lots of customers owing you lots of money. If you never take a credit related loss, you probably aren't doing enough business. >>



Exactly, but good practice sets up a corp to absorb that loss. If it gets out of hand, you are two weeks away from the poor house, claiming Bankruptcy

DMWJR

Wayne, you certainly had the best idea, which is both honest and fair to creditors. This reminds me of something I did for a client one time. His bank called his note and he had no way to repay it on their immediate timetable. He had a lot of secured debt and needed to liquidate his inventory in the best possible manner to take care of as many of the secured creditors as possible. His business was large enough (but still just a mom and pop retail outfit) so that we did a liquidating Chapter 11.

In a normal Chapter 7 filing, the US Trustee just liquidates by selling everything at a fire sale value. When we did the liquidating Ch. 11, the owner was able to control the liquidation of his inventory and sell it for the maximum he could using his expertise and knowledge of the industry, therefore maximizing the recovery for the creditors. The bankruptcy left him with just a little debt left to work off, which he was able to do.

tradedollarnut

Are you sure? Did you take economics?

Yes, I am and yes, I did.

If you want to state that the lenders price their product agressively taking a certain amount of bankrupt losses into account and that they make more money because of this pricing model, fine. But no lender wants or needs a certain level of bankruptcies.

topstuf

What bills? What coin collection? What ethics?

What? Me worry? What a world.

barberlover

I wanted to wait to give people a chance to reply to my request from attorneys who hang out here for some advice on saving my home and retirement savings and some of my coin collection.

For those of you who offered advice, whether i agreed with it or not, i appreciate the spirit in which it was offered and the piece that made the most sense to me was to consult a local attorney because laws on this matter can very from state to state, so thanks again to those who offered this kind of advice.

I have tried to avoid the tit for tat type of arguement here for a long time now because it generally goes no where but i have to respond to the tone of 2 points and 1 person inparticular.

First of all, i can't speak to dishonost intentions of some people, but if anyone was questioning my honosty in the post, i suggest you go back and reread what i said to begin with, not the responces but what i said !

Now, as to the point of Bumpy, does anyone remember a post someone made here a few months ago that among other things said that people will talk to you in a different way on the internet then they will in person ?

Bumpy, you don't know me, your a newer member and i dont recall ever having a chat with you before, yet you feel free to acuse me of sniveling and that i should be a man. I won't put this the way i would like to but for someone i don't know to speak to me like that it would carry more weight if you did it face to face.


I got dumped by my employer after 17 and a half years due to health problems, your tone is like kicking a man when he's down and i consider that below the belt. If your not

an attorney and didn't have anything constructive to say, then there was no need to respond at all. In the future i suggest if you can't respond to my posts without personal attacks [not dissagrements, but personal attacks] then please refrain from doing so.

I hope i have never said anything to anyone on these boards even if we didn't agree, that i wouldn't say in person, it would be nice if everyone else did the same. Les

Bustman

<< <i>Dont waste a Bankruptsy on anything less than $300,000, they will treat you the same as filing on $30,000! Max out all the cards you can get your hands on! Take advantage of the Self Storage down the street!

WSM,
I hope you are joking. If not, I feel sorry for you.

satootoko

I already gave you my best legal advice (get competent local counsel experienced in debt relief law), based on 40 years of practice, much of it in the bankruptcy courts. Now the second best - for heavens sake don't take the advice of Wallstreetman and others to commit federal criminal offenses! The U.S. Attorneys aren't spending all their time on terrorists and there are lots of tattletales out there. There are other options, and the right to file bankruptcy is far too valuable to waste on $100K or less unless knowledgeable experts fully familiar with the facts of your case tell you to proceed. Good luck, and PM me for some suggestions.

braddick

<< <i>Max out all the cards you can get your hands on! Take advantage of the Self Storage down the street! WSM, you just confirmed everything I already thought about your intelligence... Barberlover - don't be stupid. Don't add the burden of fraud onto your already regretable situation. Sell the coins - they are just possessions. Isn't the ability to sleep easily far more important than any material possession? >>

TDN- This is twice now, in two weeks, you've more than impressed me with your wisdom. Your words are dead on.

itsnotjustme

How will everyone saying what collection feel when someone who owes you money for a coin they bought from you declares bankrupcy and doesn't pay you??

wallstreetman

TDN, If you recommend he see an attorney, then I will tell you my statements came directly from an attorneys mouth! I filed years back and I did what I thought was the right thing, not listen to him, I handled it myself! I was treated so bad on the phone and in person by creditors that I wish I had screwed them like he said! It doesnt seem to matter whether your honest or not, your going to get treated the same, then and for a few years!
barberlover, you really dont need an attorney, if you feel you cant make out the papers your self, get a paralegal! Its really simple, the judge will ask you a few questions about what you wrote and say "I hope you learned your lesson about getting over your head"!

mr1931S

>>>There are other options, and the right to file bankruptcy is far too valuable to waste on $100K or less unless knowledgeable experts fully familiar with the facts of your case tell you to proceed.

So if I have $90K of indebtedness with no ability to pay the money owed to my creditors, I shouldn't consult with an attorney to see if the best thing for me to do is seek relief under the bankruptcy laws?

My $90K of indebtedness might not be a big deal to someone else but, in general, why would it be "far too valuable to waste on $100K or less?" Can you you explain what you mean, satootoko?

If I'm unemployed, have exhausted my savings buying food and paying for the roof over my head, owe a hospital and doctors, say $60K, because I had a major operation that saved my life but unfortunately I have no medical insurance, and owe various other creditors a modest $30K, should I just go to a financial counselor so that he can tell me what I already know?:

"Your broke, mister. You have indebtedness beyond your ability to pay. You should consult with an attorney and discuss filing bankruptcy."

DMWJR

Mr1874: THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BANKRUPTCY IS SUPPOSED TO BE FOR!!!!!!!!!!

NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE ABUSES THAT OCCUR IN BANKRUPCTY!!!!!!

However, you can't ignor the last line of the quote you posted: unless knowledgeable experts fully familiar with the facts of your case tell you to proceed.

bumpy

<< <i>

First of all, i can't speak to dishonost intentions of some people, but if anyone was questioning my honosty in the post, i suggest you go back and reread what i said to begin with, not the responces but what i said !

Now, as to the point of Bumpy, does anyone remember a post someone made here a few months ago that among other things said that people will talk to you in a different way on the internet then they will in person ?

Bumpy, you don't know me, your a newer member and i dont recall ever having a chat with you before, yet you feel free to acuse me of sniveling and that i should be a man. I won't put this the way i would like to but for someone i don't know to speak to me like that it would carry more weight if you did it face to face.


I got dumped by my employer after 17 and a half years due to health problems, your tone is like kicking a man when he's down and i consider that below the belt. If your not

an attorney and didn't have anything constructive to say, then there was no need to respond at all. In the future i suggest if you can't respond to my posts without personal attacks [not dissagrements, but personal attacks] then please refrain from doing so.

I hope i have never said anything to anyone on these boards even if we didn't agree, that i wouldn't say in person, it would be nice if everyone else did the same. Les >>



Well, I just spent about two hours responding to this and AOL booted me and I lost it all before I could post it and I don't have the energy to try and rewrite the entire thing. It was pretty dang long, believe me.
Anyway, to paraphrase: When I made the statement, "If you gotta file bankruptcy...etc" I was using "you" in the general sense and not directing it at you in particular, barberlover. I was reacting to the various suggestions involving fraud, theft, lying, etc. I'd kinda forgotten the original question by that point. As far as your contention that I'd contributed nothing of value to the discussion, why, I must protest. To paraphrase: Be responsible, buck up, move on.
I believe in being responsible for the debt I've created for myself. In the greedy, litigious society we've created that makes me a bit of a schmuck.
I also believe that there are circumstances where bankruptcy is about the only viable solution.
Fearless self-honesty will help one decide the right path.

It kills me when so many "good, honest" people have no problem padding their insurance claims, cheating on their taxes, cheating their employers, abusing the bankruptcy laws, etc, etc.
And I realize it's not just individuals. Government waste, corporate thievery, welfare fraud, frivolous lawsuits, the mockery of religion, it all sickens and disgusts me at times. All I can do is do what I know to be right.
Man, I'm just rambling.
I did want to try and make a point or two here I think.
First, an observation: a certain member, who apparently travails in that bastion of ethics that is his namesake, proposes you max out your credit cards and avail yourself of off-site storage, yet has the audacity to include "Tell the truth and the truth will set you free" in his sig line. Now that's world-class hypocricy!

But back to you, barberlover. In the short time I've been on these boards I've surmised that a)you're overweight, b)you injured your knee at work (due in part, I suspect, to your weight), c)you were terminated due to your inability to continue to perform your duties, and, d)you hang out on these boards, sitting on the pity pot and begging people to tell you what to do with yourself. If you feel like that's an unfair characterization, sorry, but that's what I get. I can only say that life is hard (even when it's going good), we all have problems, other people are generally less interested in our problems than they let on, and we ultimately have to face and deal with them on our own. So buck up, man, sell your coins if you have to, file bankruptcy if you have to, learn a new trade, write a book, go back to school, become a dealer, WHATEVER.


Just quit yer sniveling

bumpy

Remember, a true friend stabs you in the front