Incidental toning is NT
islemangu
Posts: 1,391 ✭✭✭
I am sorry FC57Coins...I said I would leave this topic alone after your last brilliant response on AT/NT (exerts below ) but I lied
for this is what these forums are for..right? Take a look at this NGC slabbed walker toning
FC57Coins start
Toning can certainly happen on both sides as is the case with album toning and envelope toning where both sides of the coin have come into contact with the air, and some other agent that has triggered the chemical reaction. To me, one of the best ways to determine whether toning is real or not is to step back and think to myself - how did this toning happen. I know that:
Envelope and album toning is the result of the coin being exposed on both sides to paper or cardboard.
Endroll toning has distinct angle patterns and is the result of coins sitting on the end of a paper roll
Bag toning is the result of the coin sitting against the side of a mint bag and reacting to the sulfur in the cloth thereby creating very vibrant colors
Crescent toning is the same as bag toning, only a coin has been superimposed on another, therefore a crescent shape has been created
Textile toning is still yet another variant of bag toning, where the actual textile pattern has been imprinted on the coin.
Mint set toning - very vibrant, or sometimes dull speckled toning patters typical of some 1940's-50's coins
Natural skin - Im giving this name to any toning that falls into the category of grey/black for silver coins and brown for copper coins
Now, knowing that these patterns exist, I ask the next question. Which pattern could the coin in question fall into. If I can possibly attribute the type of toning that might have caused this, next I'll ask myself - given the type of toning - how could it have "grown" on the coin. Because we are talking about a chemical reaction, I think of toning as starting small, and "creeping" through out the coin. Over time and depending on where the toning ebbs and flows, you will have certain indicators which will tell you if the toning is good or not. Colors will flow from one color to the next in a seemingly natural flow, though this may not always be the case, the recesses of devices will be toned one color, while the tops of will be another (you often find the letters and dates on a genuine toned coin have one color and the inside space has another), the edge and denticles of the coin (if it has denticles) are toned one color, and the miniscule spaces between and next to them are toned another.
Finally, the overall coin has a "look" about it that tells you it's toned naturally. This is the toughest trait to judge, because it comes strictly with experience. Most brilliantly toned coins as referred to above, will be uncirculated, and therefore the toning on these coins will have an almost irridescent, transparent look to it (most, not all the time). AT coins, in my mind look like the toning was imposed or painted on, thereby impeding the luster coming through (most, not all the time). When I first started dinking around with toned coins I was often fooled by coins that I thought looked "good enough" but when I started reading and listening to the pros as to what to look for I felt rather foolish. Because of the ways coin doctors have found to tone coins, there are exceptions to every rule that I have cited above, so I'm not claiming that this is a foolproof way to tell whether a coin is properly toned or not. These are some of the things that I look for to determine whether or not I want to sink some of my hard earned money on a coin that has color.
FC57Coins Stop
Toned NGC Walker Obverse
Toned NGC Walker Reverse
With this toning the same on both sides it would seem to fall into envelope toning in which the coin was partially enclosed or sticking out of envelope. It would seem to be easy to reproduce (AT) this effect on a coin but why would somebody do this for it does not really add to the appeal of the coin. Do you think the graders ask this same question to themselves in determining to slab or to body bag? If the envelope that toned this coin just happened to be high in sulfur and the toning was spectacular but in the same pattern would it not be body bagged then?
for this is what these forums are for..right? Take a look at this NGC slabbed walker toningFC57Coins start
Toning can certainly happen on both sides as is the case with album toning and envelope toning where both sides of the coin have come into contact with the air, and some other agent that has triggered the chemical reaction. To me, one of the best ways to determine whether toning is real or not is to step back and think to myself - how did this toning happen. I know that:
Envelope and album toning is the result of the coin being exposed on both sides to paper or cardboard.
Endroll toning has distinct angle patterns and is the result of coins sitting on the end of a paper roll
Bag toning is the result of the coin sitting against the side of a mint bag and reacting to the sulfur in the cloth thereby creating very vibrant colors
Crescent toning is the same as bag toning, only a coin has been superimposed on another, therefore a crescent shape has been created
Textile toning is still yet another variant of bag toning, where the actual textile pattern has been imprinted on the coin.
Mint set toning - very vibrant, or sometimes dull speckled toning patters typical of some 1940's-50's coins
Natural skin - Im giving this name to any toning that falls into the category of grey/black for silver coins and brown for copper coins
Now, knowing that these patterns exist, I ask the next question. Which pattern could the coin in question fall into. If I can possibly attribute the type of toning that might have caused this, next I'll ask myself - given the type of toning - how could it have "grown" on the coin. Because we are talking about a chemical reaction, I think of toning as starting small, and "creeping" through out the coin. Over time and depending on where the toning ebbs and flows, you will have certain indicators which will tell you if the toning is good or not. Colors will flow from one color to the next in a seemingly natural flow, though this may not always be the case, the recesses of devices will be toned one color, while the tops of will be another (you often find the letters and dates on a genuine toned coin have one color and the inside space has another), the edge and denticles of the coin (if it has denticles) are toned one color, and the miniscule spaces between and next to them are toned another.
Finally, the overall coin has a "look" about it that tells you it's toned naturally. This is the toughest trait to judge, because it comes strictly with experience. Most brilliantly toned coins as referred to above, will be uncirculated, and therefore the toning on these coins will have an almost irridescent, transparent look to it (most, not all the time). AT coins, in my mind look like the toning was imposed or painted on, thereby impeding the luster coming through (most, not all the time). When I first started dinking around with toned coins I was often fooled by coins that I thought looked "good enough" but when I started reading and listening to the pros as to what to look for I felt rather foolish. Because of the ways coin doctors have found to tone coins, there are exceptions to every rule that I have cited above, so I'm not claiming that this is a foolproof way to tell whether a coin is properly toned or not. These are some of the things that I look for to determine whether or not I want to sink some of my hard earned money on a coin that has color.
FC57Coins Stop
Toned NGC Walker Obverse
Toned NGC Walker Reverse
With this toning the same on both sides it would seem to fall into envelope toning in which the coin was partially enclosed or sticking out of envelope. It would seem to be easy to reproduce (AT) this effect on a coin but why would somebody do this for it does not really add to the appeal of the coin. Do you think the graders ask this same question to themselves in determining to slab or to body bag? If the envelope that toned this coin just happened to be high in sulfur and the toning was spectacular but in the same pattern would it not be body bagged then?
The setting up of other roads
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
0
Comments
That has to be one of the most pleasantly appealing toned coins that I have ever saw. Remember that all things are not absolute....Ken
By no means did I try to infer that my word on toned coins was the last. I'm glad that it made you think on the subject and I for one welcome any conversation on the topic.
The coin you show, which I've taken the liberty of cropping together for everyone, is a beautiful example - in my opinion of a very well cared for, "natural skin" coin that has been preserved probably in some sort of holder like a capital holder for a good bit of time, and has mellowed into the very nice gold/rose colors that you see below:
This coin does not strike me as having been exposed to agents containing any heavy amounts of sulfurs, as that, in mind, would have resulted in a different coloration patter. As with any metal that reacts to the environment, silver will react to its environment, even if encased in a well protected environment for a reasonably long period, say 30 years or more. Instead, I think this coin rested comfortably in a collection somewhere, exposed to minimal light and or air, and over a period of time, say 30 or 40 years, whatever contaminants got to this coin, turned it the colors you now see.
The gist of your question seems to revolve around whether this coin is attractive or not, and that is really in the eye of the beholder. To me this is a very pretty coin which becons to it's history and to the care that it has been privy to. The colors probably look a heck of a lot better in person, and in all honesty, I don't believe that a coin doctor could arrive at the subtlety of these colors very easily. Keep in mind that for a coin doctor to be able to make money, he has to 1. be able to fool people, and 2. be able to do so in a profitable (ie expedient) manner to make his industry worth his time. That being said, the only way this can be accomplished to my knowledge is to either bake, or expose to harsh chemicals, or lasers now adays, and that just doesn't give the results that you see on this coin.
So that's my take on this coin. Please feel free to disagree as often as you like - you're right that's what these forums are for and that's how we learn!
Frank
I have always sought out toned coins back when rainbow on ebays search engine would bring out 3 items instead of now 3 pages. I worry on the coin docs coming out of the woodwork screwing up the market ie Dr. Soccor Mom
and knowledge through experience is the key weapon against this which you obviously have.
To travel on in old accustomed ways
I still remember the talks by the water
The proud sons and daughter
That knew the knowledge of the land
Spoke to me in sweet accustomed ways
1. I'm trying to learn as much as I can about what looks real and what doesn't
2. I'm not buying any raw toned coins anymore, unless either A. I'm absolutely certain of what I'm getting (which is not always the case) or 2. I'm willing to take a gamble.
3. I know how much I want to spend on any one particular coin, so my risks where it comes to buying toned coins is minimal compared to someone else who may spends thousands on a coin of this type
4. When I do buy toned coins I stick to PCGS and NGC graded coins, at least there is some measure of quality guarantee with these two outfits - both as to the quality of the coins, and in them backing up their work.
5. I can always count on people making an absolute ass out of me on here should I post an obviously doctored coin on here (
So - keep coming with the answers - I reply because it makes me verbalize my thoughts on the subject and thereby reinforces them - but I would love to hear what other people - yes including dorkarl whom I respect - have to say on the matter.
Frank