The mystery of the 1880 MS shield nickels ....
Sunnywood
Posts: 2,683 ✭
If anyone is interested in an in-depth discussion of the rarest U.S. five-cent nickel coin, please take a look at this dissertation I posted across the street .... happy reading !!
Thread on 1880 shield nickels
Sunnywood
Thread on 1880 shield nickels
Sunnywood
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Comments
Frank
I have also passed on every alleged "MS" coin offered to me, or seen at auction in the past year (in a variety of different company holders). It really may come down to "splitting hairs" in deciding to buy one of these for HUGE money as an MS coin that has all of the attributes of the proof counterpart. But, when you finally buy your no question MS specimen that can get the "Sunnywood Seal of Approval", remember who has first shot
Wondercoin
That Sunnywood Seal of Approval is going to be dang hard to come by !!! But when I find one, I'll show it to you for sure !!!
Sunnywood
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Very nice article by the way.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
That was really great reading and extremely informative. Thanks for posting it and great work. Easy reading and well done all the way around.
Mike Printz
My site
Harlan J. Berk, Ltd.
https://hjbltd.com/#!/department/us-coins
Back in the 1970's I did some simple pop surveys on shield nickels and found that the 1880 rarely showed up compared to the 1879 or 1881. After 10 years of looking for circs or UNCs I had found only one specimen to buy: a lowly, semi-corroded VG! After that point I pretty much gave up on this quest. Like you, I have never seen a frosty coin that looked like a business strike.
With the grading services having "identified" a few dozen UNC's, even more doubt has been thrown into the fire.
roadrunner
I have now posted (on the thread across the street) some nice pics of the first obverse die taken with my Coin Scope, but as I sold my proof & circ examples from the second obverse die, I don't have as good pics of that one.
Wondercoin, you know where my PCGS PR67 (Breen-2515) and NGC PF67 (Breen-2516) went ... those two coins were each excellent examples of the respective obverse dies, showing all the characteristics flawlessly & without question proofs. (Not to mention rainbow-toned & gorgeous both of them !!)
Sunnywood
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Great job, proving once again that there are many opportunities for the specialists out there to make new discoveries and add to or even overturn conventional knowledge.
Best,
Sunnywood
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<< <i>If anyone is interested in an in-depth discussion of the rarest U.S. five-cent nickel coin, please take a look at this dissertation I posted across the street .... happy reading !!
Thread on 1880 shield nickels
Sunnywood >>
Sunnywood - thank you very much.
Unfortunately I bought one raw (I know) from a dealer who I thought would know the difference. A shield collector overheard the transaction and spent sometime looking at it. Another dealer did the same. The entire dicussion was around the obverse die characteristics. One thought it could be a business strike, the other wasn't sure but could not discount it. It was submitted to a TPG (my only submission ever). The bad news is that it was deemed corroded and cleaned; the good - it was AU58. No die breaks, satiny with half of the top of the second "T" in STATES missing. Having read you article it makes me glad it is the only one I have.
Did you see the NGC MS66 at the fun show on the floor? I saw it in the case, but didn't ask to look at it. Isn't there a raised die lump on the reverse near the T in states that is seen on most mint state 1880's?
<< <i>Thanks oreville for resurrecting this thread. I have to say, however, that my knowledge of the 1880 mint state shield nickels has actually increased since then ... so one of these days, I will have to write a revised and updated thread on the characteristics of 1880 MS nickels. But right now, I am heading out into sunny beautiful Florida weather, having finished al my business at the FUN show ... and I'm off to do some birding in south Florida (my other collecting hobby, one where you just have to see the collectibles, and not buy them !!)
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Edited to add--O sorry-I did not see your post until after i posted stephunter. Kinda duplicate question.
I've also been warned away several times from so-called business strike 1831 half-cents.
Thank you.
One of the obverses yielded some business strikes that are "no questions" MS coins. Those are the most desirable to any collector of the MS coins. The other obverse yielded business strikes that are semi-prooflike, and these can be very confusing to most eyes. Strike can be an important determinative.
One of the obverses developed a die chip at 7 o'clock that has sometimes mistakenly been called a diagnostic for MS coins. This is wrong. Proofs were struck from that die before the chip developed, but they were also struck later, when the chip was quite prominent. I used to own a no-questions fully mirrored, fully struck proof with that die chip being very prominent !! By the way, neither obverse was used enough to develop the hairline die cracks so typical of the series, so don't expect to find any on MS coins.
While I focused on the obverses, John Dannreuther had the wise idea of studying the reverses and the die pairings. J.D. has been doing extensive research on the subject, and I believe at some point he will publish his findings. He told me some time ago that he hoped to uncover more information about the striking sequence, and therefore hoped to establish more diagnostic data.
Of the various reverses, it is true that there is one, referred to as the "island reverse" that had a die pit near the T in STATES (producing a corresponding lump on the coins, hence the name "island reverse"). The island reverse is ONLY known on business strikes. To date, that is the only die diagnostic that I am aware of that is dispositive of MS coins. However, not all MS coins had that reverse, so the lack of an "island" does not mean the coin is a proof.
For most collectors, any AU coin is not to be trusted without the island reverse. Many have square edges, and are therefore possible circ proofs. Further complicating matters, I believe that the proof collar may have been used to coin some of the business strikes, although they were struck only once and do not have the strong striking details of proofs.
I am confident that J.D., in his usual fashion, with the aid of other researchers such as R.W. Julian, will eventually get us to a deeper understanding of the issue.
Best,
Sunnywood
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