58d NGC ms67fbl, look closer Daddy-o...

LucyBop

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3016744219&category=11973

I see you!

ksteelheader

I checked that one out a few days ago. Could possibly be FBL. Can't tell from their pic. Definitely not 67.............Ken

LucyBop

and it isn't ngc either, otherwise it would be a bargain....

MadMonk

I saw that the other day as well. Made you look, didnt he?

Gilbert

Lucy,

Was it previously advertised as "NGC"; current ad states ICG, or are you just saying "it isn't something other than ICG?"

I used to look forward to Fairtraderz inventory (wasn't he a member here), but every time I look at his reserves, I become more and more disappointed.

MadMonk

<< <i>Lucy,

Was it previously advertised as "NGC"; current ad states ICG, or are you just saying "it isn't something other than ICG?"

I used to look forward to Fairtraderz inventory (wasn't he a member here), but every time I look at his reserves, I become more and more disappointed. >>



It was still listed as NGC when the HepKitty started the thread.
Fairtraderz is a major Franklin dealer for years, I have seen him at many shows. He can pull some monsters out of his hat!

LucyBop

yup, they must have corrected the auction...

K6AZ

And some people wonder why I don't include ICG in the top tier of grading services.. The three wisps of hair in front of the ear that should be well defined on 65s and above are nothing but a blob on this coin.

paigowjohnny

$ 18 S/H/I

Russ

<< <i>And some people wonder why I don't include ICG in the top tier of grading services. >>



I don't wonder.



That's an ICG Proof 69 Deep Cameo.

They suck.

Russ, NCNE

MadMarty

If they offer a bounty like AGC does, I'm ratting you out Russ!!!

Gilbert

By 1958, Franklin master die(s) were about at the end of their life. Three clear wisps on a 65 (almost any grade) might be a little unrealistic. Although it might be a bit overgraded my issue is with the FBL designation. I would expect a "67FBL" to be unquestionable. I guess it could be the reflection; yeah, right.

mdwoods

It probably looks better in person, but I think I have seen much nicer 58 Ds in PCGS MS66FBL holders.

DCAMFranklin

I don't believe I will ever judge a 3rd party grading service by a very limited experience with a modern series of $15 coins. A totally different group of graders is responsible for grading the older coins.

As EVP has said on a number of occasions, he has taken a good number of coins from their ICG holder and had them grade as high, or higher, with NGC and PCGS.

I took 10 proof Franklins from their NGC holders, as I believed they were worthy of the Cameo designation. ALL 10 coins received a LOWER numerical grade from ICG than they had from NGC. ALL 10!On the same submission I had sent in 3 PCGS proof Franklins for the same reason. Two of the PCGS coins received a lower numerical grade from ICG than had been assigned by PCGS. The 3rd PCGS coin, a 1957, received the same numerical grade, PR-68, though Cameo. I also took a coin from it's Cameo ANACS holder, as I believed it was worthy of a DCAM grade. ICG disagreed and gave the coin the exact same grade of PR-67 Cameo. Oh, one of the NGC coins, a 1961 NGC PF-68, came back from ICG as a PR-64 Cameo. FOUR(4) full point lower than that assigned by NGC!!

Ya, I think I still like their older coins.

Russ

ICG Proof 70 Cameo.

They suck.

Russ, NCNE

LucyBop

come on dcam, show us some pics....

DCAMFranklin

Why would anyone buy the coin if it sucks?

K6AZ

<< <i>By 1958, Franklin master die(s) were about at the end of their life. Three clear wisps on a 65 (almost any grade) might be a little unrealistic. >>



Not on 58s Gilbert. I have seen plenty with the definition. I will agree with your assessment for 1961-63 issues which is why they are so scarce in high grade. This particular coin warrants no higher than a 64 in my opinion.

Russ

K6AZ,

I thought they created new master dies in 1960?

Russ, NCNE

MadMonk

You know, the 3 wisps of hair are an aid, but I never heard of them being a requirement. Some used to say they had to be full for a coin to grade FBL, If my brain cells are intact, Ehrmantraut disagreed. There was significant die erosion, and any grader worth his salt knows this. Teletrade started mentioning it, and it seemed a lot of collectors started thinking it was neccessary. I really think it's way too much to ask. What aboutt the "O" in "OF" on the reverse. Does anybody realize that it is another empirical aid in looking for full strikes.

K6AZ

Russ, I don't know if they did or not, but when I put together my set in the late 80s/early 90s I just was not able to find full struck 1960s Franklins. I went by both the hair in front of the ear and the bell lines. There were some early dates that I couldn't find well struck either, the most notable being the 53-S. I would have to go through the coins to give you the other dates, and they are in my box at a bank in town, but if memory serves me correctly I also had trouble with some of the early 50s Denver coins.

DCAMFranklin

K6AZ- Russ is right about the new master dies. The strike was good for the coins in the 60's. The problem was all the bagmarks. Including all the big marks across the bell lines. Gilbert is right about the amount of wear on the dies for the '58 and '59 coins. Even the coins from the mint sets were mushy compared to the early date Franklins.

Gilbert

Thanks guys for chiming in; didn't want to come across as combative, but you have both expressed my intended response(s) re: the state of the dies from the late 50s and the new master for 60.

Now I don't know who Ehrmantraut is, but most of my experience(s) are in line with what Rick Tomaska (the only Franklin series author I know of) published. He in fact makes mention of the "wisps of hair" and other central details in judging the fullness of strike. The "O" of oF is new to me; based on its placement on the coin, it seems kinda' odd to me for it to be very significant in the full strike determination. Seems to me if it was lacking, it would probably have more to do with a die issue more than a strike issue.

K6AZ

Well, if any of you have actively worked with Franklins over the last ten years, you definitely have more recent experience than I have, since I believe I completed my set in 92 or 93. I do remember that the 60s coins, the 53-S, and some of the early Denver coins were tough to find nice. I have only bought six Franklins in the last ten years, all white PCGS MS64 early 50s S mints, that were too cheap to pass up (Less than $15 each).