Will it or Won't my NGC 1884-s ms60 Cross to PCGS ???

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 7:00AM

I am zero for at least 20 crossover attempts over the last 3 years from NGC to PCGS.I really try and pick nice coins to Cross.I just don't throw in anything just to see if it will work.I have tried 3 or 4 1884-s NGC Dollars in ms60-2 and all of them came back DNC.I have sent these in with different dealers just in case I was the problem

I purchased another one in Santa Clara on Saturday.This time it was just a plain old NGC MS60 ....So if it doesn't cross,it will have to be because they think it is AU.It is bright and has very good eye appeal for an 84s.I showed it to at least 6 guys who know their 84's and I got 6 yes and zero no's on the cross...4 of the 6 say it has a chance of coming back a 61...
so here we go...
what do you guys think..will I be zero for 21 ?? and keep lowering their 25% crossover rate ?? or will I be 1 for 21 and be batting .040 ??
Have fun with this.I handed it to them on Saturday and they say 15 days at the most before it is ready for pickup.

Russ · April 8, 2003 7:04AM

It will cross.

Russ, NCNE

dragon · April 8, 2003 7:13AM

Zero for 20 huh,,,,ouch! And I thought my track record was bad going 4 for 6, although the best coin in the group IMO which I thought was rock solid and a possible upgrade actually did not crossover. I guess I need to go back to grading school.

dragon

jbsteven · April 8, 2003 7:25AM

CRACK IT OUT!!!!

sinin1 · April 8, 2003 7:27AM

how can they deny the cross? unless there is some sort of rub it has to be MS doesn't it?

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 7:27AM

If I crack it and it comes back au58 I lose big bananas...
I can't take that chance...
Larry

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 7:33AM

pcgs hates hairlines..if a coin has even a hint of them,they AU the coin..
on that subject..I have NEVER seen an 84s that is 60-2 that has no hairlines....Even some 63's I have seen have them..
I look at every one that ever hits the show circuit or any other way to see them..
We will see..
L

banknote1 · April 8, 2003 7:34AM

Maybe I just don't get it but what is wrong with the coin in an NGC holder??

jbsteven · April 8, 2003 7:36AM

i believe you have a better shot at getting the same or better grade with cracking it out. I have done it a few times. 85-o in ngc ms66 crossed in the ngc holder to pcgs ms66. I cracked it out and sent it back to pcgs raw and it came back a ms67 (pop top)

I have done others and it depends on each coin.

I have also cracked a 86-o in pcgs ms62 and it came back questionable toning and David Hall said it looked AU58!

topstuf · April 8, 2003 8:00AM

There's not a damn thing wrong with coins in NGC or ANACS slabs. What is current now was not in the past. To me, slabbing accomplishes ONE thing and it ain't grading. Well, it is to an extent but my take is the most important aspect is authenticity. If we don't know a nice coin from a dog, no service is going to make us any more observant or learned.

I do however, support slabs (where I did not in the past) as a time fixing indication of submission and a protective environment to some degree. You KNOW the coin was fixed at a given standard at a given time and that nothing has changed since then. It is also invaluable for an estate as no matter which service you choose, you will not be subject to some highbinder telling you it is a piece of crap. Or if you DO hear that, you (or your beneficiary) should have the sense to go somewhere else.

Also, if by some circumstance, PERFECT counterfeits are developed, you may be safer with your identifiable coin that is already in a sealed container.

Standards may change. Eye appeal will not.

If you want to buy a grade, you still have to learn to grade. I have seen crap in all slabs and I have seen nice coins in all slabs.

Collect COINS !!!! If they are pretty, they will be welcome collectibles to anyone. Hang the service.

This ain't a SCIENCE. No matter how they want you to believe it is, it isn't.

It is subjective and always will be until EVERY coin date and variety and grade (to be determined) has been scanned electronically for molecular surface characteristics to a degree that is not yet possible.

jbsteven · April 8, 2003 8:28AM

topstuf

this is obviously your opinion.

Mine and few other believe that a PCGS graded coin has better resale value which is what PQpeace is looking at (I am pretty sure of this right PQ?)

I much prefer PCGS graded coins and believe they have a better resale value.

coinkat · April 8, 2003 8:40AM

Why not just leave it in the NGC holder?

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 11:01AM

I would leave it in the NGC holder,but there are 2 reasons not to..

It won't go into my PCGS Registry set and resale value is poor for key NGC Dollars.
Larry

wondercoin · April 8, 2003 11:06AM

BLACKJACK PAYS 3/2

Wondercoin

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 11:09AM

Mitch....you collect all the money and deal with the bets..
I will just sit back and watch

Larry

banknote1 · April 8, 2003 11:41AM

PQ - I haven't had any trouble selling NGC coins. But if you must have a PCGS coin why not buy a PCGS coin? It sounds like it would be much easier. I am sure it would be cheaper than 3 years of sending in coins that wont cross!!!

fcloud · April 8, 2003 11:43AM

My vote--It will not cross--the crossover rate is low!

PQpeace · April 8, 2003 11:45AM

I have had trouble finding PCGS 84's dollars....
I bought this NGC coin because I liked it at the grade...and just hope my luck changes...
In 14 days maybe it will be a pcgs coin..if not,the seller gets it back as per our agreement,
Larry

fcloud · April 8, 2003 11:58AM

I sent in an MS61 dime to try and cross and put a minimun grade of MS60 on the form. The coin does not have any rub and it still did not cross. Every time I have sent a crack-out the coin graded the same or higher. Keep us posted it should be interesting to see if the coin crosses.

Tony

Dabigkahuna · April 8, 2003 12:32PM

Just my opinion here,

On crossovers, PCGS is not going to take any risk if they don't have to. I have cracked out a number of DNC's and some have come back the same grade but for the most part, especially the 19th century coins, PCGS will bag them for the littlest hairlines.

The AU/MS cut off is another area where it is simply safer for PCGS to error on the more conservative lower grade. It seems to me that where eye appeal would carry a coin at say NGC, the grading at PCGS leans towards being overly technical. If the coin is going to make a big move, value wise, one way or the other then I would pay the extra few dollars and have the coin "reviewed" first by PCGS.

Larry
Dabigkahuna

topstuf · April 8, 2003 11:01PM

jbsteven. I agree that PCGS is considered to be "preferred" right now and so your preference is understandable. And you're right that it's just my opinion.

However, what prevails now is not guaranteed to do so in the future. Many posters (this thread is an example) seem to consider PCGS to be a "hurdle." "Can I get it into a "peesee" slab?"

As I stated, I have seen junk in ALL slabs.

The whole grading system was invented to keep the declining coin market from actually appearing to decline. Grading was different years ago and the STANDARDS were changed to tighten the market so as not to alarm the public that their coins were dropping in price. Standards for slabs were set to make the PRICE agree with the grade. Whereas, coins which traded amongst collectors and dealers at a 65 level no longer would.

Before slabs, one major GEM coin dealer and I had our own 1-5 scale and we could agree on the phone and not be surprised. But the average price paid for a 65 was knocked for a loop in the early '80's and so the coin mavens fixed the situation. They raised the standards.

So, buy what you want but always remember the required codicil of every investment product: "Past performance is no guarantee of future results."

Those are wise words and worth considering.

DeepCoin · April 9, 2003 12:36AM

I would argue that the slabs keep the collector from having to dispute the grade with a dealer. This was the major reason I got out of the hobby long ago. Once you have an undisputed opinion (right, wrong or indifferent) then you are only discussing price. Markets became relatively stable. Far too many collectors would buy an Unc coin and then be told it was AU when they went to sell it to another dealer.

The markets differ, and that is the crossover rationale. I am guessing the coin will not cross to PCGS, but it is an empiracle issue that will soon be resolved. I am, however, rooting for the coin to cross.

Gilbert · April 9, 2003 12:56AM

PQPeace,

My lowly opinion is that PCGS doesn't want to "alter" its population of MS '84-S. That and the fact that MS '84S extant is supposedly so low (relatively) they are OVERLY scrutinous; they probably think every time one comes in someone is trying to "pull" something.

rkfish · April 9, 2003 1:11AM

well.........I saw this coin at Santa Clara and........

I think it's got a good shot at being your first cross!

dragon · April 9, 2003 1:17AM

I don't get it, the coin is either unc. or it isn't.

PQpeace · April 9, 2003 1:25AM

Dragon..that is the problem here..NGC and PCGS have different views on what UNC is when it comes to an 84s or even 95o's etc.

dragon · April 9, 2003 1:28AM

I would think they both have the same opinion on whether a coin has wear or not though, a coin is either new or very slightly circulated.

CalGold · April 9, 2003 1:52AM

I think the issue is whether PCGS will net grade an MS coin down to AU for "damage" other than the heavy bag marks one expects to see on an MS60 coin.

Does anyone know the answer or have experience with that?

CG

Elcontador · April 9, 2003 3:45AM

I cannot see an image of the coin, but I agree w Dragon. It's either an Unc. or it isn't; period. A Morgan in MS 60 is a really ugly, baggy, etc. Unc., but it has no wear.

Earlier this year, Tom Killian and I did an "ugly coin exchange." I sent him a whizzed slider pink / red IHC, and he sent me the ugliest Morgan I've ever seen. The obverse was a dead gun-metal grey, but it had no wear, and to me, it's an Unc.

I don't think issues re weak strike -- which affect much New Orleans coinage -- are relevant here. Re Morgans, this issue doesn't affect grading the series, unlike, say, Capped Bust Halves and lower end Unc. SLQs.

PQpeace · April 18, 2003 8:42AM

results in..
3036373
is invoice number..
Larry

rkfish · April 18, 2003 8:45AM

My "hunch" was right!!!!!

Congrats Larry!

Russ · April 18, 2003 8:45AM

BOOOYYYEEEAAHHH!!!! I'm telling you, I'm a coin idiot savant!

Russ, NCNE

tjkillian · April 18, 2003 8:54AM

I would say a prayer to the Good Lord in thanks.

Tom

Barry · April 18, 2003 8:54AM

Congrats Larry. $600 for one cross!
BTW, I was just looking at your QSL collection, and UY0MM should be in Europe (Ukraine), not Asia. I have that same card...
de W2UP

PQpeace · April 18, 2003 8:54AM

I am one for 21 now....I just brought their crossover rate up by .000000001 %

I have 4 or 5 more to send in soon..maybe even deliver on tuesday..
can I get a streak going and maybe go 2 or 3 in a row

News next week,
Larry

PQpeace · April 18, 2003 8:57AM

Hi Barry,
I have not been on the radio in about a year, after spending the previous 12 years on it every day..
Life changes...
Thanks for the note on that card..I am sure alot of our coin guys here would appreciate that one

Larry k6ro

Nedcoinage · April 18, 2003 9:00AM

After a 0-20 i would wonder if number 21 would cross but 21 is my lucky number. Go Fer it!

Ned

Will it or Won't my NGC 1884-s ms60 Cross to PCGS ???

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