The NATURAL color spectrum of Copper coins as mint state
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
Red,Red Brown and Brown are the color designations given to copper coins by all the grading services.However there is a very wide spectrum of colors within these color designations.This is primarily a BIG reason why two coins with thew same grade command a very big price difference.
Red coins can be bright mint red,cherry or toned red,sleepy red or attractively toned red.Some red coins can also develop wood grain toning because of the alloy mixture. Wood grained toned coins can be called red/brown.
I have seen the Atwater 1793 Large cent graded by PCGS as ms 68 red which is a sleepy but attractive full red coin.It is my opinion that most Large and half cents have primarily the same copper color as the alloy mixture is similar.There are exceptions.With Indian cents a different color of copper is a golden color.This is a natural colorthat develops as the original orange skin is so thin after time these coins become pleasingly gold.Generally speaking copper coins should not be pink.In my opinion red coins should have 90% red to be called red.There can be exceptions for circa 1800 dated copper.
Red/Brown coins in my opinion should have been designated as
either red and brown or Brown with red.The EAC grades coins based on the amount of red on the coin.Toned red/brown coins are VERY pretty.A red/brown coin should have BROWN present.Sometimes magenta (a purplish tone) is present.A sleepy red coin should not be called red/brown.A red brown coin should have at least 20% red.
Brown coins are exactly brown even if they have 5% or 10% red.There are different shades of brown.I like to think of brown coins as either milk choclate or dark choclate brown coins.Stay away from Black choclate coins.Generally if a brown coin has blue on the high points it has been lightly cleaned.This is not a negative.It may have been improved.
I could go on and on but let's hear what everyone else has to say.I will especially like to hear what copper coins would like to say.
Stewart
Lincoln cents vary in color based on the mint at which they were produced.If you look at enough of them
Red coins can be bright mint red,cherry or toned red,sleepy red or attractively toned red.Some red coins can also develop wood grain toning because of the alloy mixture. Wood grained toned coins can be called red/brown.
I have seen the Atwater 1793 Large cent graded by PCGS as ms 68 red which is a sleepy but attractive full red coin.It is my opinion that most Large and half cents have primarily the same copper color as the alloy mixture is similar.There are exceptions.With Indian cents a different color of copper is a golden color.This is a natural colorthat develops as the original orange skin is so thin after time these coins become pleasingly gold.Generally speaking copper coins should not be pink.In my opinion red coins should have 90% red to be called red.There can be exceptions for circa 1800 dated copper.
Red/Brown coins in my opinion should have been designated as
either red and brown or Brown with red.The EAC grades coins based on the amount of red on the coin.Toned red/brown coins are VERY pretty.A red/brown coin should have BROWN present.Sometimes magenta (a purplish tone) is present.A sleepy red coin should not be called red/brown.A red brown coin should have at least 20% red.
Brown coins are exactly brown even if they have 5% or 10% red.There are different shades of brown.I like to think of brown coins as either milk choclate or dark choclate brown coins.Stay away from Black choclate coins.Generally if a brown coin has blue on the high points it has been lightly cleaned.This is not a negative.It may have been improved.
I could go on and on but let's hear what everyone else has to say.I will especially like to hear what copper coins would like to say.
Stewart
Lincoln cents vary in color based on the mint at which they were produced.If you look at enough of them
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Comments
<< <i>Sometimes magenta (a purplish tone) is present. >>
Ah - you mean like on this one??
Russ, NCNE
Russ - Your coin has been dipped in ms 70.....I'm sure
Stewart
*******************************************************************************
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
<< <i>Russ - Your coin has been dipped in ms 70.....I'm sure >>
PCGS believes otherwise.
Russ, NCNE
Lincoln with Color - 90
Stewart - 1
And the show goes on...
<< <i>Stewart does not know me from Adam. Believe what he says...he is trying to share his knowledge. K >>
So are we K - not everything is as it may seem. Sometimes there are strange occurrences with coins - this is one of them - learn to be open minded enough to accept the oddities now and again.
Frank
I agree with you, but apparently most collectors on this board don't care if its AT'd or not, cleaned or not, etc. as long as its in a holder and its either 'blast white' or 'monster toned'.
On the other hand, if you post the same thing you said here in the EAC chatroom you'll get wild agreement. Of course I don't think EAC has a chatroom. I'm not even sure those guys have computers. Most correspondence I've had with EAC guys is handwritten with a quill pen on old yellowed parchment - though I suspect the yellowing is not natural and was artificially created by soaking the paper in tea.
They ARE lightyears ahead of us simple folk, aren't they????
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
David
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Can you tell me the value of your 1956 D ms 65 r/b ?
I am not aware what a coin as pretty as this would bring in auction.
Can you also tell me the cost to slab this coin?
Stewart
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
This 56 D probably does come from a mint set but the negative of this particular coin is that the obverse is sooooooo different from the reverse.Compare the magenta(purplish) obverse color of the 56 D with the 1909 in the first photo belonging to FC57.Real vs. unreal
stewart
"Senorita HepKitty"
"I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
I like Stewart's description of the mint state copper spectrum. This page illustrates many of the tones he discusses.
Thanks for the comments Stewart.
Here is another one from a mint set.
I don't see any pink coins there....how come?? It's interesting that the 1877 IHC Bowers has on the cover of his book is more pink than red. Have seen some pinkish coins go for strong prices at auction. I suspect that if pink was AT, you'd see alot more of them. They are actually quite rare.
I have several beautiful toned IHCs, some in slabs and some raw - a few I would hazard a guess were doctored - but they did a darn good job and the coins are beautiful - another may have sat in great aunt Sarah's perfume and cosmetic drawer for 20 years.
Lets not be too hasty to jump to conclusions about copper. Yes, some toning is pretty obvious and easy to detect, or so we think, but we are blinded by our egos if we think we understand even a fraction of the various possibilities that exist to tone copper. Be informed, be aware, but don't think that you know it all - you don't.
I would suggest we would be better off enjoying the beautiful variations that toned copper offers us; and perhaps we should spend a little less time espousing what may be dogmatic and ignorant views by condemning most toned copper.
I returned it, because it looked like a red/brown in a PCGS red holder?
jimd
Just because PCGS says it is real doesn't make it so.
Neither does Stewart saying it isn't make it AT.
Carl - Your absolutely correct.....however there is a starting point when a coin is minted.Perhaps we should all study metalurgy.
Stewart
Well said Frank. So many times on this board certian people jump in with an opinion that they Think is the only absolute answer, just because it is their opinion. I showed a pic a few weeks back of a 1922 D lincoln, and all of the "experts" jumped on my bones about AT. I happen to know better on that particular coin...............Ken