The thread is dead.

MrEureka

Edited to eliminate the whole thing.

nwcs

In my best jeopardy imitation:

I'll take doctored for $1000

"This is a doctored coin that can't be detected without a microscope and costs 75% or less of non doctored coin in 64 details condition"

"What is a coin I'd buy from that list so long as the doctoring is stable and documented?"

paigowjohnny

I wouldn't knowingly buy a doctored coin...even if microscopic. I'm at that stage where knowing it would still bother me.

DCAMFranklin

Andy- I would be very interested in your comments about this info.

LINK

CLASSICS

no i would not....i dont care how much money i would save....a doctored coin, is a ruined coin.....

Lakesammman

I buy them if there is no reasonable alternative, mainly rare patterns, varieties, etc. But as a rule, not generic MS or Proof.

Buying them only encourages the practice.

MrEureka

skip this one

relayer

Restoration is a dual edge sword. The Sisteen chapel is being restored and the work of art emerging is more like the original then what’s been seen in the last decades before.

So is scraping off a minute microscopic layer of crud on a coin much different?

The problem with collecting items whose value is based on condition is that the condition can be restored to enhance its value.

As humans are able to manipulate objects at their molecular and atomic level using our understanding of chemistry and physics.

I would view a laser manipulated coin in the same category as any other cleaned coin. It still has collector value, but not at the same prices as an original piece.

So assuming I’d pay $2000 for a pure MS65, I’d pay $750 for a doctored one.

CalGold

Seems to me that the real issue is where does market acceptable conservation end and doctoring begin? Dipping may be considered a market acceptable form of "doctoring" that attempts to restores a coin's original appearance. So why not lasering if done to restore the coin to its original appearance by removing hairlines that arose from inept cleaning? And if only dectable at very high magnification how does that differ from dipping--which supposedly can be detected under a scanniing electron microscope (as if anyone actually owns or has access to one).


One other point-- the term "original" is widely misused in the coin industry as it usually is meant to apply to a toned coin that has not been dipped, when in reality a coin's original appearance when it came from the mint is not toned. Why not the same for a lasered coin--just uses new technology to fix the results of low tech cleaning.

CG

BigMoose

CalGold makes some very good points here. In one of my own areas of interest, it is known for a fact that certain early date and middle date large cents have been dipped and/or cyanided, then retoned so expertly that the only way even the experts can tell that the coins are not original is their pedigree with the fact that they were once dipped and recolored! So how should these particular coins be valued? Should they be valued as original coins given the fact that they cannot be identified as recolored even by the large cent experts?

WANNABEDEALER

If PCGS slabbed it someone on this forum will buy it. Then take it to them and show them the error of their ways and let them buy it back.
They allow doctored coins in thier holders all the time, the Brother Jonathan coins come to mind. Normally they would be called altered surfaces or cleaned but now are conserved. What is the difference both are enhanced.

MrEureka

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Dog97

I have some slabbed coins that I suspect are doctored (AT) but can't really prove it.
But no, I wouldn't knowingly buy one.
I have no reason to because there are still original coins around; you just have to look for them.

ursabear

Andy,

Hello!

No, if I actually knew it was doctored, I would not buy it.

CalGold

Andy,

I think you need to go more upscale on this one. Why purchase a doctored or "problem" coin when a 64 can be had for a grand and a 63 for several hundred dollars? At those price levels, a problem coin will be very difficult to resell.

At the higher end, knowingly buying a "conserved" piece may be the only option financially available to own a particular coin. That is a tougher question because of resale issues, since the larger market will still prefer undoctored coins. And of course the older the coin the more likely that at a certain grade level most pieces out there have been messed with in some way, so there may be more "market acceptance" of some slight doctoring especially if it is not readily detectible.

Yeah, I know I have evaded your question.

CG

MrEureka

skip this one

CalGold

Andy,

Your illustration of the 1849 $20 goes to my point about "high end" coins. But as to your original question, what would you pay for a doctored coin given the price paramaters of CDN $1,000 at 64 to $4,000 at 66?

And isn't it a riskier purchase for the collector who has access to a more limited group of buyers when it comes time to resell? If a lasered proof quarter eagle would be treated like a leper in the market place, it would not be a good idea to buy it any significant premium over melt because without a collector base it becomes a bullion coin.

CG

boz

boz

OOPS!! Maybe I'm missing something here, but are we being told this coin is doctored? If not how many people examine a coin under a microscope before purchasing. I don't happen to carry one around. Another question would be what would you do with it if you found out? Personally, I would pay the money for the undoctored specimen.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Andy

Let's talk reality.Is there any proof gold coin in 64 that would sell for $1,000? How about a Proof 66 gold coin for $4,000 ?

When the slime balls move metal they are altering the metal flow to remove hairlines.This is coin doctoring.Is the price for a Proof ten Liberty in 66 closer to $40,000 ? and the price of a proof 64 closer to $10,000?

Would you as a dealer pay $25,000 for a doctored proof 64 ten dollar liberty in a proof 66 holder?Of course it would be tempting.

I would NOT because I am more collector.

Stewart

MrEureka

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Nic

Andy,
Why buy at any price as a collector. The technology will only get better and original coins rarer. Some things aren't relative. They are yes or no.... again, as a collector. K

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Andy

This all boils down to GREED.Why not buy it as a proof 64 for 12,500 and sell it for 15,000.Sell it as a pq proof 64.Grey sheeets don't mean too much anymore.Isn't this better than deceiving some rich schmuck? This is what gave the coin business a bad name before grading services.

Stewart

pmh1nic

I won't knowingly buy a doctored coin regardless of the price.

MrEureka

skip it

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Andy

I have to compete at auction against guys who bid what th coin COULD become after it is altered.I dislike dipped coins, no matter what the grading services say,conserved coinsand doctored coins

What do you know about virginity and pregnancy ? Is there such a thing as a virgin coin? What about a pregnant coin ?


Stewart

MrEureka

skip it

sinin1

stewart -> how do you know that your MS69 1919 penny has not been altered by a previous owner?

dorkkarl

your example (high-grades, etc) doesn't work for me, but i will gladly & knowingly buy a doctored coin under specific circumstances. for example, a high-r7 connecticut copper that has been recolored - i will gladly buy. a holed bust dollar that has been skillfully pluged & retorned - i'd have no problem buying it at 80% OFF the undoctored price.

seems to me that there's an awful lot of paranoia about docrtoed coins. GET OVER IT. it's a legitimate practice that, just like ANY legitimate practice, can be abused

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>Could you see yourself knowingly paying more for a doctored coin than you would have paid for the same coin before it was "fixed"? >>

absolutely, yes. again, a holed sm-eagle bust dollar in VF is worth, say $300. w/ the hole repaired, retoned, etc., i'd gladly pay, say, $600. problem-free, such a coin might well cost $2700.

K S

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Dorkkarl

Doctored coins are a legitimate practice

If this is what you think then you are a TOTAL Asshol_ !!!!!

sinsin - The only one who could have doctored my 1919 Lincoln cent was the Philadelphia mint.The coin was mint wrapped in an original roll.I bought 70 coins in total.There were 13 ms 68's 1 ms 69 and about 35 ms 67's.The rest were 66's and a couple of 65's

Andy - You know I would buy a dipped 94 s dime for 200 k in 65.The only thing was a California dealer who bought the Eliasdberg 65 dipped and charged 500 k.I would only buy it to resell it.

Stewart

Gilbert

Reminds me of my previous arguments regarding numismatic terminology.

A "doctored" coin infers some alteration intended to misrepresent the actual state of the coin.

In this case, I don't want it.

A "conserved" coin on the other hand infers that something is done to inhibit damage or restore a coin's appearance -- its purpose it not intended to deceive. Just because someone may have a coin restored and NOT reveal it, does not equate conservation to doctoring.

In that case, maybe. DorkKarl, you say you would buy a plugged coin and I see no harm in that. What if you bought it as original (at normal price) and subsequently discovered it had been plugged? Could you then conceive the "numismatic distinction" between doctored and conserved? Well, not only you Karl, but to any who choose to continually assert that both practices are one and the same.

Am I the only one who believes it is downright inappropriate and sometimes disingenuous to NOT distinguish between numismatic usage of terms (much of which is based on inferrence) and ordinary usage. Heck, it's like arguing shorthand is scribble -- it's BS to use it as evidence the writer is illiterate -- it is only supportable when used for its intended purpose.

sinin1

wow Stewart, buying that roll was like winning the lottery.

dorkkarl

<< <i>Dorkkarl, "Doctored coins are a legitimate practice" If this is what you think then you are a TOTAL Asshol_ !!!!! >>

stewertblay, sorry but i have no clue how to follow your reasoning. why would that statement make me a "TOTAL Asshol_"??? is your reasoning that if somebody who can't afford something (me) settles for something less - it makes them a "TOTAL Asshol_?" please explain your accusation!



<< <i>A "doctored" coin infers some alteration intended to misrepresent the actual state of the coin. >>

agreed gilbert. for me, a doctored coin is 1 that is intentionally altered in any way whatsoever such that it is different from the state in which it was received

"conservation" does not alter the coin.

example: using canned air to remove dust particles prior to holdering a coin - that's conservation. dipping a coin to remove toning - that's doctoring.



<< <i>DorkKarl, you say you would buy a plugged coin and I see no harm in that. What if you bought it as original (at normal price) and subsequently discovered it had been plugged? >>

i would be upset - not because i bought a doctored coin, but because i wasn't told that it was doctored.

btw, i definitely have NEVER asserted that conservation & doctoring are the same, not by any means. doctoring changes the coin inherently, conservation does not.

K S