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No wonder the pop has nearly doubled in less than 2 months ...
joker73
Posts: 497 ✭
Only 4 PSA 9s of this card existed as of 2/1/03, but now there are 7 ... not surprising if this qualifies as a 9:
1976 Pete Rose PSA 9
There is no way the back is "90/10 or better," or that the card overall deserves the Mint grade. I applaud the fact that the seller (with whom I have had nothing but great experiences) has posted scans of both the front and the back, and on top of that offers a 10 day return policy. If only a front scan had been provided, I bet dollars to doughnuts the winner of the card would have been a little miffed when they actually received the card.
I really like the challenge that exists because certain issues are extraordinarily tough to find in high grade. But pop reports will start becoming very misleading if inferior cards start inflating the numbers. When I checked the pop report last week, I was excited because I thought I'd have a shot at finally picking one of these 9s up ... oh well, maybe the other two new ones are nicer
.
Robert
1976 Pete Rose PSA 9
There is no way the back is "90/10 or better," or that the card overall deserves the Mint grade. I applaud the fact that the seller (with whom I have had nothing but great experiences) has posted scans of both the front and the back, and on top of that offers a 10 day return policy. If only a front scan had been provided, I bet dollars to doughnuts the winner of the card would have been a little miffed when they actually received the card.
I really like the challenge that exists because certain issues are extraordinarily tough to find in high grade. But pop reports will start becoming very misleading if inferior cards start inflating the numbers. When I checked the pop report last week, I was excited because I thought I'd have a shot at finally picking one of these 9s up ... oh well, maybe the other two new ones are nicer
.Robert
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I wonder who has the other two, and when the report will double again? I say there are 20 examples within two months.
You should have bid on the one I had on Ebay when you had the chance
Seriously, though, I think that PSA is dreadfully inconsistent in applying their back centering standards. Frankly -- I would be more happy with PSA changing their standards than with their applying the current standard consistently. I think that the 75/25 back centering standard for PSA 10's should be enforced. But I do not think that the 90/10 standard is fair or even applied consistently. Did you realize that even PSA 2's need to be 90/10 on the back? Thus -- per PSA's current published standards, any card that is not better than 90/10 on the back can only either be an unqualified PSA 1 or a qualified something higher.
Frankly -- for many vintage issues, the 90/10 standard on the card back is utterly impossible on any consistent basis. My favorite example is often 1955 Bowman. Those cards are really dang hard to find in PSA 8 NM/MT condition as it is. If the back centering standard were enforced for that issue, the PSA 8, 9 and 10 population would probably decrease by 60%. It is that bad, and that frequently misaligned.
Card backs have always been an enigma. The vast majority of people I have ever interacted with basically disregard the card back in full except for these broad criteria:
a) no noticeable corner wear on the back
b) centered well enough that you don't see the backs of other cards
c) no huge gum stains, wax residue, etc.
d) no markings
Absent that, the back only gets a glance. Though I agree with you about the mis-application of the technical standard in this instance, I think that the grading guidelines need to be re-written in terms of back centering.
MS
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>It looks like DSL is receiving higher grades than the rest of us, pretty consistently. If that is true, it will hurt their business in time as big buyers will avoid their stuff feeling that the majority of it is overgraded. Diamond cut cards definately shouldn't get 10's and usually not even 9's. It makes you mad when you send in perfect cards to get 8's and 9's and cards like that come back a 10. >>
I think that has been going on for a LONG time!!!!
Of course there are shifting standards here. It is foolish to assert otherwise. I also do not believe that any grading company or gainful enterprise is exempt of this. It's part of the game.
As for the tilted 10...as many of you know PSA measures the narrowest margin to determine whether or not it is within the standard. Now, the card probably is very sharp and clean and may or may not be within the standard for the grade in regards to centering, but that card in a "10" holder is truly PRO-like absurd.
...don't get me started...please...
That being said, I don't think that ALL DSL cards are overgraded, and many times I can get a card that I want at a lower price just because DSL is the seller.
Just me take,
JasP24
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Now. . .this was originally in a PSA8 NQ holder. I took this card as a PSA8 NQ to PSA at the Sun Times show in November and asked that it be reviewed. The support guy took it to the back and after a few minutes he came back. When he did, he told me that the grade would stand because the back was APPROXIMATELY 90/10. To that, all I could say was I wished PSA used the same definition of "approximately" when determining if a card is 60/40 and eligible for a PSA9 NQ. Eventually, I just sent the card to Charlie and we worked something out with the card coming back as an OC - which should have been how it began life.
My personal opinion on the back of a card is this. . .on a card with a white/light border on the back, if you can see white then it's OK and close enough to 90/10. However, if you look at the left border of the Rojas there's barely a hint of white toward the bottom. . .but because of the slight diamond-cut, toward the top of that side (around the red section) there's NO white to be seen on the edge of the card.
Now. . .this whole thing comes back to - buy the card not the holder. On the 76 Rose that Joker posted, I have more problems with the front of the card - specifically T/B centering and the diamond-cut. I have no problem with the back because the white border is indeed visible on all sides. It may meet the criteria for a 9, but that doesn't mean it's a 9 that I'd like to own. Just like the PSA10 Stargell. . .so long as the diamond-cut doesn't take centering past 55/45 in the worst spot, the card still meets the criteria for a 10. But ain't no way I'd want to own it - but that doesn't mean it doesn't belong in a 10 holder.
In this regard, if you ever get up to Seattle it would be worth your while to look up Frank Smith. His 75 set is 100% complete, with an 8.70 GPA and I can assure you there's not a dog in the bunch. The guy has sent back multiple PSA10s because they weren't as nice as his EIGHTS. Phil Apostle is equally tough on his 77s. These guys can tell you, building a PSA-graded set from the 70s isn't really all that hard. Building it where each and every card(!) is one you'd be proud to own is a different story.
Once more, with feeling - buy the card not the holder.
On the subject of DSL. . .I've gotten several marginal cards from them (incl the Rojas above). . .but. . .the last batch of 72T PSA8s I got from them really were borderline 9s. As always, your milage may vary.
Mike
Finally -- the only issue I've ever seen on cards I've purchased from them really has to do with centering. I have never seen and/or purchased a card from them where the PSA 9 had a PSA 8 corner, or the PSA 10 had back wear, etc. Of the many complaints I have heard about the grades they get -- they all come back to centering. I have seen enough overgraded cards out there over the past 4-5 years to say that most of the legitimate overgrading complaints have to do with corners, print spots, etc. With DSL -- centering is the only issue, and the scans should advise each and every bidder as to exactly what they are bidding on.
MS
What is meant by "diamond cut"?
Thanks,
Jeff
Diamond-cut cards vary widely - in the case of the Stargell, it seems PSA felt that at the worst point it still measured about 55/45 or better. I've also see cards where the image was rotated so severly, significant portions of the image were cut off.
I hope this helps.
Mike
Great point towards dsls centering aspects. Whomever submits dsls cards has
a nice eye and knows the limits when it comes to centering. My complaint is this
why oh why is a variance allowed in centering. This is where I have biggest ughh.
10% variance what do you mean it's either one thing or the other for dsl I'm sure
gets the nod for I do only 25% of the time. Writing huge submissions this becomes
costly. I've seen it in many of my subs. Most of the time my 8's are because of
centering. I send in a 200 card invoice with 50 cards at 62-38 and I come up with
50 8's. Next day same submission it's 50 9's. Rewrite the rule please with a
bottomline then you know and the big dawgs don't get the break, we all do.
Personally thats where I'd like to see a pregrade program. Also having a variance
gives psa upperhand in saying it's totally within the specks. Then please answer
my question of why these are not. Answer: because it just doesn't quite make the
centering. Totally nonsense.
Reason why I'm fired up is a friend bought a psa 8 72 ryan for the scan didn't work when
bidding. He gets the card 80-20 at best you might have all seen it. Went off 3 weeks
ago.
Mike
Probably not, I dont see where that would help that problem.
I would just like to see the pregrade for the fact when I hit that grader
that wont let anything in less than 60-40. Save me alot of money plus
I could explore a little with my fence cards with blazer appeal.
Robert
<< <i>Great point towards dsls centering aspects. Whomever submits dsls cards >>
ok i have wanted to say this for along time, as i play follow the cert with just about every 76 topps dsl card, i found one not too long ago that was evidence of trimming. ok i won't say it , but i will ask how many cases of cards do you have to go through to get 31 9's and 12 10's of the same card? the brooks robinson is not the only 76 card they have with a crazy run like that. ask rbeaton about the palmer.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Ya think?
I cannot believe that these types of cards are going for this much ...
WOW!
I have about 100 of these mid 80's regionals/specialty cards and I wish they were graded. Mind boggling ...
Robert
Good job on the #1 - that was a realistic price.
Totally agree as to how many cases, your talking around 5 6-box racks with
nailing the run on the head. I cant see someone with 50 robys buying them at
1.00 a shot and putting them in a binder and sitting on them. And how would
dsl come up with them. Yeah right.
I play follow the cert also. Some of the 81's from volume submitter to be astonishing,
considering if they were to turn 10 yankee tc's which the did on one submission only
sending in 12. So they go 10-12. They would have to crack 10 rack case at least
from the razor run. I bougt one just to see and it was a slant cut with marginal
appeal. This kind of crap will only kill the hobby for the little guy with the standards
of having a good eye and pride! For the guy with the high standards will only get
screwed in the long run due to high pop reports and not having a name for himself.
You don't see it as often in the vintage but in the 70's and 80's they really have let
the volume submitter capitalize while he still can. Its really sad for in some of the
issues you'll find them harder than vintage. Thanks Jackstraw and this thread for
getting be geared up again.
And buy the way I'm not saying I've never caught a break. But all I want is consistency
for this is what I do.
1420
I said it for a long time that roses were underpriced. But some of the stuff I've seen
of late is incredible!!!!!!!!!! I had the chance to pick up the 77 rose in a 10 two months
ago passed it on to a buddy for he does the set, only to see him unload it. Boy
what a mistake.
Gator
1977 in PSA 10! I would have like to see that card. I am still looking for a solid PSA 9. I used to see them all of the time on ebay and have not seen one in a while.
How about a back that's 110/-10. I recently purchased this PSA 7 rickey NQ without asking for a back scan.
At the top, the black has been cut, and at the bottom, you will see a slice of black from the sheet's preceding card.
Unbelievable. How could ANYBODY miss this? Although I normally request a back scan, this card will be a cheap reminder to ALWAYS ASK AND RECEIVE a back scan.
PSA totally blew it on this one.
BOTR
Mike
BOTR
Mike and the rest of you, here's my newly purchased 1980 PSA 7 NQ Rickey as stated above.
It's a PSA 7 on corners alone, so this wasn't a 'no qualifiers' submission request. The serial # starts 30...., so I'm assuming its been recently graded.
Well, does this qualify for a 110/-10 back? How could you not notice this during grading?
BOTR
Mike
Check the cert # on PSA's site (if you haven't already). I've seen examples in the past that show up as a straight 8 (for example) on the flip and as an 8 OC when you do a cert. verification. PSA does make errors every once in a while.
Anyway, let us know if that's the case or not. I've seen cards with better back centering than that with the dreaded MC qualifier.
JEB.
The cert is a straight 7; no qualifiers. Somehow, it just fell through the cracks. The seller will graciously refund my money, but I may just keep it.......................as a lesson in taking nothing for granted.
Again, I most always ask for back scans and receive them; I just didn't do it this time.
On the plus side, this may also be another collecting angle: a set or group of cards with the most outrageous unaltered miscuts, O/C's, PD's, etc. I believe I still have a few 71's from childhood that have backs which are almost split evenly among 2 players............hummmmmm the possibilities.
BOTR
<< <i>...On the plus side, this may also be another collecting angle: a set or group of cards with the most outrageous unaltered miscuts, O/C's, PD's, etc. ...
BOTR >>
I've got some outrageous ones that got the grade that they deserved. Try collecting only the ones that slipped through PSA, like your Henderson. That would be a one of a kind set.
JEB.
<< <i>... I believe I still have a few 71's from childhood that have backs which are almost split evenly among 2 players............hummmmmm the possibilities.
BOTR >>
Check out these 2 (or 3?) raw '74s that I have. Obviously from the same pack. After seeing the Henderson, I might submit these in hopes of a straight 8.
In case anyone wondered, yes, each card back is pictured below the corresponding card front.
JEB.
But us good guys don't do that...right?