Are PCGS graders paid well?

Ogden · March 30, 2003 8:26AM

It would seem to me that grading for eight hours a day would take it's toll.

Ogden

nwcs · March 30, 2003 8:38AM

From what I understand, they are paid very well. But not as much as they could do as dealers.

airplanenut · March 30, 2003 8:39AM

My dealer is friends with an NGC dealer, who said they get paid quite well- of course, if you really love coins, you can't buy and sell as a grader, so there are drawbacks to what you can do with a salary.

Jeremy

nwcs · March 30, 2003 8:42AM

I think many people become professional graders really to solidify their experience. It's my guess that many graders come from the dealer ranks, grade for a few years, then go back to dealing. With that kind of background, they'd be in a great position to take advantage of the market.

Woodwind · March 30, 2003 8:55AM

I would think that with the high cost of housing in and around Newport Beach they would need to pay them well.

anoldgoat · March 30, 2003 8:57AM

Good point. Now my Cliff Claven take. Was surfing the tube awhile back and ran upon a documentary on coffee. Of course they spent some time with a coffee taster. This girl had been doing this for over 20 years. They taste it and spit it out.
I've heard they look at something else between coins. I can think of a couppla publications

.

wingedliberty · March 30, 2003 9:47AM

I am not 100% sure, but I heard from someone they get paid around $100,000/yr.

Brian.

wingedliberty · March 30, 2003 9:52AM

If PCGS/NGC do 90,000 coins per month and they have 9 full time graders each,
that means 10,000 coins per grader per month, and about 330 coins per day , per grader.
In an 8 hour day, 7 hours with lunch, that means about 50 coins an hour. Approx.
Interesting.

These are of course just estimates.
Interesting.

Brian.

(Make that a two hour lunch)

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 10:01AM

These are of course just estimates.

When I was at PCGS I averaged about 600 coins a day, and that was probably just a bit on the slow side. That was before the modern coin fad, so the averages must be higher today.

jd4science · March 30, 2003 10:40AM

<< If PCGS/NGC do 90,000 coins per month and they have 9 full time graders each,
that means 10,000 coins per grader per month, and about 330 coins per day , per grader.
In an 8 hour day, 7 hours with lunch, that means about 50 coins an hour. Approx.
Interesting.

These are of course just estimates.
Interesting.

Brian.

(Make that a two hour lunch) >>

But wasn't it said that graders only looked at a coin for a few seconds? If so, why are the submissions taking so long?

njcoincrank · March 30, 2003 10:43AM

Interesting....

To get a qualified grader you must pay them well. Quite well.

As far as the amount graded per day per grader, I can say that an average grader does somewhere in the area of 1000-1200 per day. If they grade easier coins that number can rise to 2500 or more.

Bear in mind that this does take a toll on them. It is not easy to look at that many coins, put a grade (or no-grade) on every single one, and do it day after day after day after day.

Next time you go to a show with a major auction, try to grade every single coin, on a seperate sheet of paper (don't use the auction catalog), and DO NOT LOOK AT THE GRADE ALREADY ON THE SLAB.
Grade every coin, or at the very least put down why you would not encapsulate it. DO NOT SKIP A COIN!!!! Do every single one. Do it for 8 hours, take one hour for lunch, and then do it again the next day. On your second day use a different sheet of paper, grade the same coins (1000-2000), and then compare you grades at the end of the second day.

Don't forget that you have to make sure the date on your computer screen matches that on the coin. Or the denomination. Or the mintmark. You get the picture.

I'd like to see some of the board members do this at the Superior auction this week in Santa Clara, and come back next week and give us your thoughts. Remember, DO NOT CHEAT, as this won't give you any real feelings as to the grading process.

Good Luck!

njcoincrank

nwcs · March 30, 2003 10:45AM

The graders take as long as they need. For some coins, it only takes them about 10 seconds. But for others, it takes longer. Especially if there is attribution needed. At the grading seminar, one of the graders told me it took several weeks to finish with one coin because they had to send it to an expert in the series to figure out what it was exactly. And to help with the grading since the coin was really unusual.

crazysc · March 30, 2003 10:58AM

Curious, does PCGS claim, as they do with cards, that 2-3 graders view each coin? That there is a verifier to check the grades? I'd assume the card model was based on the coin model. If that's the case, you have to adjust numbers significantly in projections.

joejeweler · March 30, 2003 11:19AM

Yeah.....but does that apply to your wife, girlfriend, brother, sister, parents.........just about ANYONE.......buying coins for you? Seems unlikely. Just why such a restriction makes no sense. Just take safeguards that coins can't be "knowingly" graded by the owner!

To avoid any possibility of a coin inadvertantly ending up in an owners hands for grading......these could be sent in by the grader with notation on the invoice stating it should be assigned outside his area of examination. The other graders would of course NOT be notified they were looking at a fellow workers coins!

Now an obvious identifyable coin could be a problem if the grader's dishonest. But even judges recuse themselves from cases where they have personal involvement or possible conflicts of interest....

If a grader got caught grading his own coins.....out on his butt and blacklisted from ANY grading service, perhaps. Works in Vegas for cardcounters.....

Might work and allow those with a love of coins to collect AND grade.
Joe T

<< My dealer is friends with an NGC dealer, who said they get paid quite well- of course, if you really love coins, you can't buy and sell as a grader, so there are drawbacks to what you can do with a salary.

Jeremy >>

joejeweler · March 30, 2003 12:41PM

Andy......600 coins per day does NOT seem a bit on the slow side! In fact.....it seems simply ludicrous to put such pressure on the graders to constantly impose such "quota's", of sorts!

Ignoring modern fodder for the moment........a much more reasonable level , especially on classic coins at or near census condition or even mint state examples in general.....a 5 minute minimum seems more appropriate. Figuring in not only lunch but also 10 minute breaks every hour or so to relax the eyes..........that leaves a total of about 5hrs 50 minutes actual time spent grading per day. (ignoring occasional "potty" breaks and smoker's "fixes" if allowed). Divide that by the 5 minute interval and you arrive at about 70 coins per day!

And don't tell me the grading companies can't afford it, either. Even at the lower pricing scale....say, $23 per coin.....that equates out to $1,610.00 in gross sales production PER DAY! Granted, there are supposidly others involved in the process.......insert printers and slabbers and invoice handlers and shippers. But with a GROSS SALES of $1,610.00 PER DAY PER GRADER.........it's still BIG BUCKS!

Currently the amount of money generated is obsene if graders are processing 600 or more coins per day! Keep in mind there are a LOT of higher fee'd......premium turnaround time coin lots sent in. But if we ignore that...... at $23 per coin (average even?) the figures at 600 per coin equate out to $13,800 per day per grader! A five day week for 50 weeks a year means $3,450,000.00 PER GRADER PER YEAR in generated fees! Rediculous for a company whose stock is, and has been, in the dumper! Where's the money going, and why aren't the stockholders seeing it?

By the way......with all the problems of late, especially regarding inconsistant grading and fingerprinting........SLOWING DOWN might be the answer! It certainly couldn't hurt, and allow the graders much more enjoyment in their work. (they don't seem to hang around at one place for a lifelong career). Maybe the "prints" are a sign of rebellion? ....or maybe just the pressure?

Makes me wonder........
Joe T

<< These are of course just estimates.

When I was at PCGS I averaged about 600 coins a day, and that was probably just a bit on the slow side. That was before the modern coin fad, so the averages must be higher today. >>

oreville · March 30, 2003 12:46PM

The number of coins graded per working day has to be higher than the 330 per day since, there is sick time, personal time, vacations, having to leave early or come in late for doctor appointments, etc., etc.

With that much grading every single day, are headaches very prevalent with lots of eyestrain?

joejeweler · March 30, 2003 12:52PM

So a grader has to generate at least 330 coins per day, or $7,590.00 PER DAY (based on even $23 per coin), in order to cover these other things? Get real.....not even the federal government needs such inflated figures.....and they are the poster child for waste!

Joe T

<< The number of coins graded per working day has to be higher than the 330 per day since, there is sick time, personal time, vacations, having to leave early or come in late for doctor appointments, etc., etc.

With that much grading every single day, are headaches very prevalent with lots of eyestrain? >>

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 12:55PM

it seems simply ludicrous to put such pressure on the graders to constantly impose such "quota's", of sorts!

There were no quotas. I worked at my own pace, which was a little slower than the average. Some coins take minutes to grade, but most take less than 20 seconds. They average out.

joejeweler · March 30, 2003 1:05PM

Maybe "quotas" was the wrong term. But were there "bonuses" paid out if the "average" was consistantly exceeded? In any case....just seems like an awfull lot of money is being generated with the CU stock going the wrong way. Any thoughts as to why?

Also, when i look at a coin i'm buying, often for 5k or much more at times, i know i look it over a whole lot more than even a few minutes! Sometimes i see something i hadn't noticed the first 15 minutes.......especially if i was awed by the toning or exceptional luster or whatever. Later what should have been obvious jumps out at me!

A lot like dating! LOL

Joe T

<< it seems simply ludicrous to put such pressure on the graders to constantly impose such "quota's", of sorts!

There were no quotas. I worked at my own pace, which was a little slower than the average. Some coins take minutes to grade, but most take less than 20 seconds. They average out. >>

SethChandler · March 30, 2003 1:06PM

Andy,
What made you be a grader and not a full time dealer?

MrEureka · March 30, 2003 1:18PM

What made you be a grader and not a full time dealer?

I've been dealing (coins) all my life. I was never a full time grader, just worked one week a month for a year. It was fun for a while, but it got old pretty quickly.

SethChandler · March 30, 2003 1:26PM

Andy,
What area of coinage did you learn the most about while you were a grader that you didn't have exposure to as a full time dealer?

zenny · March 30, 2003 4:30PM

<< ........a much more reasonable level , especially on classic coins at or near census condition or even mint state examples in general.....a 5 minute minimum seems more appropriate.

Makes me wonder........
Joe T

>>

Joe, if there was a five minute minimum for looking at each coin there would be graders actually DROPPING DEAD OF BOREDOM in the grading rooms. The high attrition rate of good graders would create further backlogs and, commensurately, the grading fees and turnaround times would continue to rise at greater and greater rates.

Eventually PCGS would have to start hiring from outside the "top fifty" good graders and then, man o man, would things start getting ugly. Who knows, maybe coins would start getting slabbed with fingerprints, the next thing you know there would be micromanagement of a message board, maybe a ceo starts calling customers mean & evil names....

whew, thank goodness i woke up from that nightmare in the nick of time! Yow, i needs me a shower.

z

Conder101 · March 30, 2003 8:57PM

I think you guys are missing something.

OK PCGS says they are grading 90,000 coins a month but since each of those coins is supposed to be seen by three graders that means that they have to go through the process three times or it would be the equivalent of 270,000 coins each being seen by just one grader or in other word 270,000 coin gradings a month. Now if they have 9 graders that comes to 30,000 coins per grader per month. Now they only work Mon - Fri so there are about 20 working days a month or 1,500 coins per grader per day. If they work an 8 hr day and take a hour for lunch that comes to 214 coins per hr, or 3.6 coins per minute, one coin every 16.66 seconds. That is assuming no breaks etc. If you take longer to examine a tough or higher value coin you start falling way behind and you will have to grade a lot of coins in less than 16 seconds per coin (Don't forget you have bookkeeping to do during that 16 seconds too, entering the grade into the computer etc.) Or you can BB large groups of coins to get back on schedule. Frankly I think either someone has exaggerated the number of coins processed per month or there must be more graders or most likely each coin is NOT reviewed by three graders like they say. Even with the coin not being reviewed by three graders you are still looking at 500 coins a day, 71 per hour or 1.2 per minute. One coin every 50 seconds, a much more believeable pace and one that allows for closer examination of those coins that need it without getting too backlogged since most coins won't take 50 seconds and you can build up a time buffer.

1956Quarter · March 30, 2003 9:39PM

Moot question, slabbers cannot grade no matter how much or little their paid.

) BUY RAW!

smprfi · March 30, 2003 10:20PM

But wasn't it said that graders only looked at a coin for a few seconds? If so, why are the submissions taking so long?
I believe they said 90,000 coins graded.Lets not forget about all the Body bags they have to look at.

joejeweler · March 31, 2003 12:18AM

Zenny.....i'll admit 5 minutes to grade a lot of coins is WAY too long! But gosh darn it.....i wouldn't want to think if i sent in my signiture coin for PCGS (or even NGC for that matter for star* review), that it was being channeled thru an assembly line speeded up beyond which those on it couldn't function and treat the coin with due diligence!

Remember that "I Love Lucy" episode where she was working on a chocolate assembly line (dipping cherries i think) and the line kept speeding up! Funny stuff , but i'd hate to think of graders under pressure like that when MY COIN comes thru.

Even a $45 office visit at a doctor's office involves a 15 minute examination....usually! What are we paying for in submitting a coin for even economy........a ten second glance by 3 graders? Might some of the inconsistancies with re-submissions and fingerprinting be a DIRECT result of this quick examination? Remember, a high percentage of coins graded are "raw" (fresh and crackout coins included). When i have a nice raw coin i try to make sure my hands are freshly washed to remove most of the oils and contaminants from them.......just in case i inadvertantly slip off the edge of a coin and touch a surface. But i'm NEVER in a hurry in handling it! Takes me 5-8 seconds to even pick it up carefully and gently! Am i nuts or what? lol

Also, of what use is having a PCGS or NGC grading standard "set" available when there is NO practical way the graders can even use it to compare a borderline coin?

Slow down............the prints might disappear and the consistancy re-appear.

Just my thoughts.....
Joe T

<< 

<< ........a much more reasonable level , especially on classic coins at or near census condition or even mint state examples in general.....a 5 minute minimum seems more appropriate.

Makes me wonder........
Joe T

>>

Joe, if there was a five minute minimum for looking at each coin there would be graders actually DROPPING DEAD OF BOREDOM in the grading rooms. The high attrition rate of good graders would create further backlogs and, commensurately, the grading fees and turnaround times would continue to rise at greater and greater rates.

Eventually PCGS would have to start hiring from outside the "top fifty" good graders and then, man o man, would things start getting ugly. Who knows, maybe coins would start getting slabbed with fingerprints, the next thing you know there would be micromanagement of a message board, maybe a ceo starts calling customers mean & evil names....

whew, thank goodness i woke up from that nightmare in the nick of time! Yow, i needs me a shower.

z >>

Max · March 31, 2003 12:27AM

The original question was:

Are PCGS graders paid well?

And once again a thread takes a life of its own. Don't you just hate when that happens?

The answer is "it depends".

They have a choice of being paid by the fingerprint OR in slabs [just like at ACG].

Are PCGS graders paid well?

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