Counterfeit Quarter Eagles

WACoinGuy · March 27, 2003 1:51PM

I just recently started collecting Indian Quarter Eagles. I've read that they were fairly frequently counterfeited. I've only been buying these coins from a reputable dealer, but what should I look for to determine if an Indian Quarter Eagle is counterfeit?

sinin1 · March 27, 2003 3:21PM

Good luck - almost need to know the die varieties for the various dates/mintmarks

Some altered mintmarks but mostly die-struck copies for the bad ones

One frequently seen characteristic is raised horizontal "tool marks" at the back of the neck and in front of the feather or below the necklace.

Why risk buying raw?

Johnscoin · March 27, 2003 4:00PM

The color of the metal can also prove counterfeiting. Many of the counterfeit pieces were made in Lebanon and in the Middle East for years. Too many tourists have brought these pieces back, unfortunately bumming many collectors.

WACoinGuy · March 27, 2003 10:39PM

What sort of coloring would a counterfeit piece have?

agentjim007 · March 27, 2003 10:42PM

Buy PCGS/NGC/ANACS and save yourself the brainwork (and grading fees)

sinin1 · March 27, 2003 11:09PM

Most of the copies have the correct gold/copper composition - you may see brown copper specks in the real ones more often.

There is only 0.121 oz of gold in this thing so about $40 for melt value, are you getting them for that? more likely 3 to 8 times multiple of gold melt value.

Will the dealer let you return them if you send them in to get graded and they come back copies?

WACoinGuy · March 27, 2003 11:09PM

The main reason I'm buying these raw is that I'm trying to get a matched XF set, and it's rare to find these coins slabbed in that condition (which makes sense -- it's not really worth it based on the coin's value). Which raises another question -- do counterfeits tend to be found more frequently in uncirculated condition, or are they found regularly in all grades?

WACoinGuy · March 27, 2003 11:18PM

More like 4-5 times melt value in XF, so not worth a whole lot, and remember gold coins have to go through regular service, so IMO it really isn't worth the grading fee. The one I'm most worried about is the 1911-D, but I'll see if I can read up on that one and get to know its characteristics. That may help me for when I do come across that one. Even though that one would be worth having graded, I'd really rather have a matched set in the series, so my preference would be raw. I guess I could always buy it slabbed and crack it out.

coinut1799 · March 27, 2003 11:51PM

For what it's worth a coin dealer friend told me that counterfeit 2 1/2 and $5 Indians spin like tops when then are spun on a hard surface. Real specimens will not spin more than a turn or two. This has something to do with the incused design of the coin. I'm just passing this along for comment.

eagle7 · March 27, 2003 11:56PM

In the raw coin universe, there are probably more Indian quarter eagle CF's than there are real ones. That part is true. As far as a sure fire way to tell if one is CF, there isnt. If you are not going to send them in for certification, them pass on the really bad looking coins and the others dont worry about. You really wont know for sure without sending them in to the experts.

WACoinGuy · March 28, 2003 12:09AM

More than half the raw Indian quarter eagles are counterfeit? I knew this series was more counterfeited than others but I didn't realize the numbers were that high!

AbesNeighbor · March 28, 2003 12:19AM

I learned my lesson before it cost me too much. I suggest buying graded coins. as agentJim stated. You save yourself a lot of future headaches.

They are beautiful...I collect them myself.

WACoinGuy · March 28, 2003 12:47AM

Thanks for some of the tips -- the spinning like a top one is interesting. It's got to be more than just the incused design, because that's obvious from looking at the coin. In any case, my coins do pass the "top test," as well as some of the other tests that I've read about counterfeit detection (no seams on the edges or small lumps on the coins, and no obviously artifical luster). Learning about some of the die varieties would be a good next step (can anyone suggest a good book?). I'd have to think I could eventually learn enough to be able to tell a counterfeit myself -- at least 95% of them. After all, that's why I started this post -- to learn some tips.

eagle7 · March 28, 2003 12:51AM

Lot's of good information on the subject of CF detection available from the ANA library, with video tapes as well. I would look there for material.

WACoinGuy · March 28, 2003 1:41AM

Great -- I'll check it out. I saw that there were several on their website -- are there one or two that you'd recommend above the others?

Johnscoin · March 28, 2003 1:45AM

Actually, the part about spinning like tops is actually correct. Too bad a dealer isn't likely to let you try that.

As far as the coloring, it's just suspicious. They do have the same composition most of the time, but there are still subtle differences that can be detected in the color quite often. I'd recommend the counterfeit detection book and video from the ANA. You can check them out of purchase them. While they are a little dry, they would come in extremely handy.

redhott · March 28, 2003 1:57AM

The ANA has put out reference reports on counterfeit coins. They have appeared from time to time in the ANA's monthly publication "THE NUMISMATIST" and have been reprinted and sold in at least two counterfeit detection volumes.

You must have, and be able to understand and use, the information in them to be able to have any hope of authenticating your own purchases of Indian quarter eagles.

Yes, a very high percentage is counterfeit in existing raw sets, and the owners do not know it, and frequently don't want to hear it, when they go to sell their sets.

dorkkarl · April 10, 2003 9:43PM

this is 1 series where i DO SUGGEST buying slabed coins. i've been taken on a couple of counterfeits whcih i did add to my counterfeit reference set. i feel pretty safe these days, but unless you want to take the time to learn, buy slabed.

ie. it takes a lot of time to learn how to recognize the c/f's, & time is money, so your time may be better off saved, & just spring the extra $ for the slab

K S

jonesy · April 10, 2003 10:48PM

Fellas, I learned something today. Thanks

Glenn

lordmarcovan · April 11, 2003 5:57AM

<< <i>Why risk buying raw? >>

<< <i>Buy PCGS/NGC/ANACS and save yourself the brainwork (and grading fees) >>

<< <i>I learned my lesson before it cost me too much. I suggest buying graded coins. as agentJim stated. You save yourself a lot of future headaches. >>

I don't have much to say that the others haven't already said. Buy one slabbed, and if you want it raw, crack it out and keep the insert. Good luck in your quest- they're neat little coins.

BigBucNutts · April 11, 2003 2:48PM

<< <i>More like 4-5 times melt value in XF, so not worth a whole lot, and remember gold coins have to go through regular service, so IMO it really isn't worth the grading fee. The one I'm most worried about is the 1911-D, but I'll see if I can read up on that one and get to know its characteristics. That may help me for when I do come across that one. Even though that one would be worth having graded, I'd really rather have a matched set in the series, so my preference would be raw. I guess I could always buy it slabbed and crack it out. >>

All 1911-D Quarter Eagles have a raised wire rim on the obverse from approximately 1:00 to 5:00. This can be seen on very low grade coins and serves as an immediate signature for identification.

relayer · April 11, 2003 5:46PM

Collecting raw gold can be an expensive education.

There are a lot of reasons for counterfeits and some are even made of gold.

Buy only PCGS/NGC slabbed gold.

Edited : Even dorkcarl doesn't recommend raw gold, so if he recommends slabbed coins you know there is something to it.

Counterfeit Quarter Eagles

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