concerning the ana/barry stuppler/acg debate
michael
Posts: 9,524 ✭✭
does the outcome make the ana look better as an organization?
did they handle this correctly? did they make a big deal out of something/nothing?
was the verdict just the usual bunch of political nonsence? business as usual for the ana?
is there something stinky in denmark? or as the saying means no intergrity or just plain skullduggery?
any comments?
sincerely michael
did they handle this correctly? did they make a big deal out of something/nothing?
was the verdict just the usual bunch of political nonsence? business as usual for the ana?
is there something stinky in denmark? or as the saying means no intergrity or just plain skullduggery?
any comments?
sincerely michael
0
Comments
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I missed it.I thought it was more or less a non-ruling.Or slap on the wrist.
The ANA quoted its cree and AGC echoed back with the same cree.And it was over?
It was bizzare.
Jeremy
<< <i>does the outcome make the ana look better as an organization? >>
I think it does. They could have just addressed the complaint against Barry, but in their decision they made a point to mention the different standard that ACG said it uses to grade coins. Now it's on the record. They also pointed out that if an ANA member did what Barry did, they wouldn't have a problem with it. It seems it was only because he was a Board member that they "reminded" him to conform to the Board member Code of Ethics.
<< <i>did they handle this correctly? did they make a big deal out of something/nothing? >>
I think they were smart to emphasize the potential dangers of buying coins slabbed by a company that uses a different grading system. They had no choice but to investigate the complaint. But after reading their decision, I wouldn't be surprised if the complainant now wishes it hadn't been filed.
<< <i>was the verdict just the usual bunch of political nonsence? business as usual for the ana? >>
The fact that they took a stand in saying all grading companies aren't alike is a good step, and it doesn't seem like "business as usual" to me.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
paigow johnny - considering the event, and that Accugrade's performance (while routinely horrendous) is really tangential to the complaint, don't you think that comments to the effect "makes far more grading errors then any other grading service" and "does not warn its end consumers that it does not subscribe to commonly accepted grading standards" are pretty strong statements, and reflect the sentiment of the board?
The key question is where do things go from here? I talked to Chris Cipoletti the morning after the decision and he informed me that there still has been no formal complaint lodged against the principals of ACG. Here's some information that I hope some of you may grasp and consider acting on.
1. The ANA Board CANNOT initiate the complaint, nor can any of its members individually. It has to come from without.
2. The ANA Board cannot consider a complaint against a company, only against individual ANA members.
3. During the testimony of witnesses at the complaint hearing, a number of allegations against Alan Hager and Accugrade were made. In one instance, Larry Whitlow approached Alan with an altered 1916-D dime in an ACG holder. Although the coin and holder were Mr. Whitlow's property, Mr. Hager took the coin from Larry, cracked it out of the holder and handed it back to him. Only after Larry came back with the show promoter did Mr. Hager make good on the coin. There was further testimony from Julian Leidman and others concerning counterfeit coins in ACG holders that were not made good on. Additionally, and perhaps the most potentially damning was the written statement and phone testimony of a former employee (independent contractor). Among other things, he alleged that Alan Hager, wearing his ah-collectibles hat, picked nice silver eagles from rolls and encapsulated them in ACG holders as "milennium eagles." As I understand it, this is not a matter of subjective grading, but of material misrepresentation. If true, Mr. Hager is certainly guilty of some breach of ethics through commission and Mrs. Hager, as President of ASA Accugrade, is equally accountable in allowing the misrepresentation to be perpetrated in her company's product.
4. The ANA bylaws are particularly strict in regards to counterfeit and whizzed coins. While the penalties stated are for knowingly selling these coins (or inadvertent sale in multiple cases), the board might see some parallel for a case where the grading and sales operations are so closely intertwined. One piece of testimony indicated that an individual approached AH at the ACG table with a counterfeit coin in an ACG holder and was told to "take it back to the dealer you bought it from." There is a strong argument that after a certification company takes a fee to certify a particular coin, it takes on the fiscal responsibility for that coin's authenticity regardless of its disclaimers. Authenticity, unlike grade, is an objective standard.
Barry Stuppler took the time to bring together a number of compelling witnesses to Accugrade's deficiencies. He cannot do so in a complaint against its principals, but someone else could. The information and the people are still there.
Peak Numismatics
Monument, CO
In order to have something happen, people have to stop buying ACG slabs. When will people learn that? What was Larry Whitlow doing with an ACG slab? Surely he of all people should know better?
The ANA allows this behavior to damage the hobby and eventually the industry. If more dealers cancelled their memebership or threatened to not renew maybe just maybe something would happen. I doubt though.
They need more of what our little friend below has!
Has the picture of that critter been... um... altered or enhanced?
-- Dennis
Now this guy had some big ones and knew how to use them.
09/07/2006
Pennies make dollars, and dollars make slabs!
....inflation must be kicking in again this dollar says spend by Dec. 31 2004!
Erik
a major non event
summed it up really well
enough said
sincerely michael
While frustrating that a much stronger stand was not taken by the ANA it was a significant step forward. The ANA is not a pure collectors body but greatly influenced by parties have have an interest in avoiding the assignment of great regulatory powers to it. The organization's statements are also carefully generated to avoid future liability issues. The members need to applaud the ANA and urge them to move forward to more vigorously protect our interests. At the same time forums like this have impact because people are less constrained and speak their mind.
Will,
I thought your comments well put together.
I believe this will be the first step in the education of consummers about risks from purchase of undocumented but slabbed stuff (junk). People will be more willing to come forward
Max,
It is my belief that the well visualized gonads of your mascot shrink in the off season. Have you checked?
Still waiting for my ballot, and this hearing will bear directly on all my considerations. I hope the candidates speak to this issue, if it isn't too late.
The ANA itself will not do anything to disarm AGC.
I say we just nuke AGC and be done with it.
The ANA board probably could have chosen not to expell Barry AND not to word things as strongly as they did against ACG. I think it was a big positive that they spoke out the way they did and I hope it will be the beginning of the end for those who deserve it.