Ethics Question -- Body Bagged Coins

FrattLaw

You buy a slabbed coin in a NTC, PCI, SEGS ect holder from a dealer and then submit it to PCGS or NGC and it gets bodybagged for AT but they leave it in the original slab and return it to you. You then ask the dealer for a refund based on the bodybag and he agrees since the coin is still in a slab.

Later you find out that that dealer has now submitted the coin to another 3rd party service where it was in fact slabbed and graded as natural toning.

The coin is now on Ebay for a much higher price then it was sold to you for. Also, there's no mention of the former bodybag from a better 3rd party service and at last check the high bidder is another forum member you have done business with.

What do you do? Is this ethical from a dealer's standpoint? Should the dealer state that the coin was bagged in his description by a top grading service? If he doesn't is this fraudulent? Should I tell the other forum member? Is full disclosure really necessary if there's a return policy?

What are your thoughts?

Michael

wingedliberty

Michael:
Its a very tough call I think. I think it would really depend on the severity of the perceived challenges with the coin. Not all body baged coins are created equal. I have PCGS Barber halves
that I am 100% certain were cleaned and its obvious. Anytime you submitt a Bust or Barber half its a crapshoot, of course there is the difference, body bagged as a counterfeit or light cleaning?
Big difference.

Brian.

wingedliberty

We must also consider that there are so-called borderline issues with AT, and even the best, miss it sometimes. Its highly subjective.

Brian.

jbsteven

Even the big grading services can make mistakes. wheter they did in this case, who knows? I believe we if take what a company says about a coin as being the absolute supreme authority on the coin then just let the current slab speak for the coin.

wallstreetman

OK, PCGS BBagged it, was it NGC or ANACS that slabbed it? Mistakes can be made either way! The service should quarantee it, but the dealer will be liable to the service and the buyer, he should have disclosed this to both! I would tell the other member!

keets

you should move on without interfering in another sellers auction which would be a no-brainer ethical question. the AT issue is only a matter of opinion and as such should be accepted as a mute point. the other dealers ethical dilemma is his own. despite prevaling thoughts to the contrary, we aren't always our brothers keeper.

al h.

Russ

<< <i>the AT issue is only a matter of opinion >>



And, grading services are frequently dead wrong.

Russ, NCNE

Tonekiller

I agree with keets and Russ.

TBT

BigD5

Sounds like a decent dealer to give the original refund based on the bodybag on the original submission.
I don't think there is any ethical question involved with the second submission. The dealer received the coin back, gave a refund, and probably said bullsh**. Submitted the coin, it holdered, and now he listed it to sell it. If you want to divulge the past information with an acquaintance, go right ahead. I don't think the dealer has to forward that information.
Coins get bagged, and then holdered like that ALL the time.

FrattLaw

Thanks for everyone's input, I'll just leave it alone. It's not my problem, if in fact it is a problem. Who really knows for sure.


Michael

MS68

Michael- This does not sound like a case where it is cut and dry that the coin was really AT. If that were the case then why would the individual that purchased this have bothered to send it to either PCGS of NGC to get an opinion when the coin was first sent to him in the offbrand holder. If the coin had been obviously AT, he would have just sent it back to the dealer and asked for his money back without wasting his time and money to send it in to PCGS/NGC. As you and I have discussed in the past, there are coins that are no question authenticly toned, there are coins that are obviously AT, then there are many coins that possess characteristics of toning that precludes determination as to whether the toning is real or fake. This example would appear to fall in the last catagory by the collectors action to send it in for a second opinion from PCGS/NGC. As a dealer, I do not feel obligated to tell the buyer of every coin I sell its entire history before it received the grade on the holder it is currently in. I can see how this would work "This PCGS MS66RD 1909-S VDB is being priced to you at only $8500 because it finally received the grade I was looking for after the 17th time it was sent in. Twelve times it came back 65RD, twice it came back 65RB, once it came back 66RB, and once was bodybagged for questionable toning." I have never heard any dealer or collector for that matter divulge that kind of information to me in the entire time I have been conducting business.

Dog97

The million dollar question is; AT by who's standards? All the different grading companies have different levels in determining AT.
I don't think the seller should be under any obligation to disclose that the coin had been DNC.
On a personal level I would appreciate it if you told me that the coin was a possible problem coin if you saw me bidding on it.
If I saw you bidding on it I would tell you that it was a possible problem coin.
I wouldn't go as far as emailing all the bidders on eBay to tell them.

fcloud

I don't think I would worry over it. One grading service says AT, and the other doesn't think so. PCGS is an opinion just like the opinion of which ever company slabbed it. Subjectivity is abound in toned coins, and if one company thinks its AT and the other doesn't the market should determine the price. I don't feel the dealer is doing anything wrong.

Baley

I think you are only obligated to describe the coin as it is NOW

It is just to much to expect a seller to go into a complete history of a coin.

It's in so and so slab, graded such and such, here's a picture, and thats it.

as for telling the other forum member, sure, any info would probably be appreciated, and would become another factor in a purchase decision. You must not have liked the coin enough to keep, and it seems you're bummed that it's now "worth" more than you had it for.

coinkat

Good question. There are some problems here. If a coin is returned in a bb, it is still an opinion...an opinion that may be right or wrong. If you returned the coin and got your money back, I think that should probably end your involvement. Toning can be tough issue which may not generate a concensus opinion and if the dealer was able to get the coin graded BY tpg COMPANY X, are you committed to make the argument that they are dead wrong? I don't think I would want to be in that position.

relayer

If one professional opinion says it's AT and
another professional opinion says it's not
then the coin must be destroyed.




<< <i>as a mute point. >>

Is that a point that doesn't speak? Sorry, my point is moot.

DCAMFranklin

Plenty of Members here have posted examples of a coin taken directly from a proof set was returned from PCGS in a bodybag. Can't get any clearer than that. PCGS does make mistakes. Their OPINIONS can be wrong.

Does a dealer have an obligation to reveal every MS-66 that used to reside in a MS-65 holder? Personally, I don't believe they do and I think you are very naive if you believe they will.

The dealer doesn't have any obligation to reveal the previous bodybag.

I don't believe I have an obligation to notify the other Member that is the high bidder. After all, there were 3 opinions given. Two of the three grading services felt the tone was market acceptable.

riverman

I have heard where someone opens up a sealed U.S. Mint package and sends the coins off to PCGS to be graded. (Coins freshly minted and sent directly to the collector by the U.S. Mint) The coins are returned in a body bag. Maybe PCGS did not make a
mistake. There have been reports in the past where the U.S. Mint had left small
traces of contaminants (oil??) on the dies and the coins therefore pick up some of these
contaminants and PCGS rightly bags the coins.

wallstreetman

Maybe the question should be, would anyone here want to be told it was BB by PCGS before it ended up in this holder?

braddick

A coin is only as good as its current holder. How it got there, and disclosing such, is not an ethics question.

If it is now in one of the top three Service holders (and, I'm guessing ANACS let this one in- they've been loose lately with toned stuff)- then that is what it is.