PCGS/DHRC A Conflict of Interest ?????

RICK15JK

I always wanted to know how people felt about this question. It is a win win situation for the company.

But who's to say they can make the grades and make a tremedous profit on behalf of us!!!


Rick

kranky

I believe they have said DHRC does not submit coins to PCGS.

Cameo CC

Rick - No one can really say but here is what Mark Saltzburg said:

Allow me to ask you something. If I'm retailing coins and building sets for people and at the same time deciding if a coin should cross, do I have conflict of interest? What if I'm buying coins from my largest submitters to sell to my retail customers who are also customers of retailers that I compete with. Confusing? I think it is a lot worse then confusing and you know something, it doesn't need to be that way.

Todd

TheNumish

How can it not be a conflict of interest?

Not saying this happened but it could--Let's say David Hall's buddy is submitting thousands of 1/10 oz gold eagles. David knows any MS-70's that get graded will be sold to him and he will make a ton of money on them. Not many people submit that many coins so when the coins are being graded it's obvious whose coins they are. What's stopping them from grading more coins MS-70 than they normally would?

There are a lot of different scenerios that could happen and I don't know if any of them have happenned. All I know is that human beings being what they are over time something like this will happen.

It's also unfair that DHRC competes with their own customers.

RICK15JK

Jay...


You took the words out of all our mouths.


Rick

Bear

If we are looking for absolute perfection we wont find it in this world.

While DHRC could be theoretically considered a conflict of interest, it is

probably a lesser problem in actuality then we see in most industrie

The economic health of the Coin Industry seem excellent ,so I do not

see a problem or a need for concern at this time.

oreville

A subject of significant concern with a few CLCT stockholders on the east coast, including this poster.

Positive suggestions have been made already on this board, on other boards and directly to David Hall on how to rectify this problem which has been hurting CLCT stock performance.

flaminio

Of course there's a conflict of interest. Anyone who doesn't think so is deluding themselves, DH included. We get all uppity about self-slabbers, and ah-collectibles selling ACG slabs, yet somehow the PCGS/DHRC relationship is OK?

The board needs a [John Stossel] tag: Give me a break!

dorkkarl

it has POTENTIAL to be a conflict of interest. no question.

K S

Outhaul

Personally, I think it's a total conflict of interest and anyone who thinks otherwise is burying their head in the sand. Human nature being what it is, there is ALWAYS a possibility for improprieties to take place. I don't care how honest and upstanding a person projects him or herself, NOBODY knows what truly lurks beneath the surface. Some of the most outwardly honest and sincere people I have met have been the ones who bear considerable watching.

While everyone would like to feel they are always above reproach, they are not. You can bet your bust halves that when they do get found out, their shenanigans have been going on for quite some time.

I think that, as a whole, PCGS does fairly good and straight forward with regard to their service. But HRH David Hall would have a long way to go to convince me that his operations are not a conflict of interest. Whether or not he benefits from it is another thing altogether.

I know a lot of you will feel that I'm too distrustful, but who on these boards is not when it comes to sellers. I think we've ALL been burned. Flame me if you like, but that is my opinion and assessment of the subject of this thread.

Just my two-cents (U.S.)

Cheers,

Bob

VonZipper

No need for flames everyone has a right to their opinion, unless you live in Iraq.

MadMarty

I agree the potential is there, but I do not think DHRC would put their reputation on the line for a few PR70DCAMs. When coins are submitted the graders do not know who the coins belong to, the coins are an order number. I DHRC had every PR70DCAM made and was selling them, then you can think something is up. But (and you dealers can pipe in), dealers buy/sell/trade coins between themselves all the time. I have not bought a PR70DCAM from DHRC ever. I have looked at the inventory (proof Lincolns), and have not seen a PR70DCAM Lincoln in their inventory. I have bought PR70DCAM from other dealers and other board members. Who's to say that the buyers at DHRC don't do the same thing. Just because HRH is involved with the day to day at CU, I think the assumption is crazy that he would put his and PCGSs reputation on the line over a few PR70DCAMs. Just my two cents worth, and I suppose the moon landing was all staged also.

VonZipper

Yeah Madmarty DH has plenty of money, why would he bother!

wallstreetman

Dont forget about the QUARANTEE! Any $ made would eventually have to be given back if they werent 70s! David Halls reputation would be lost also!

MadMarty

<< <i>Yeah Madmarty DH has plenty of money, why would he bother! >>



I think money has nothing to do with it. A couple of months ago, I went to the bank to try and buy the bag af half dollars from the counting machine. They checked the total on the machine and it was $475 in halves. I paid cash and they handed me the bag. I opened the bag and checked the coins out, it was filled with SACs and SBAs. I have two choices:
A) Keep the coins cha-ching
Inform the bank that they made an error.

I told the bank they made an error (there was over $4000 in dollars in the bag).

Why, because I felt it was the right thing to do. Maybe HRH has tons of money, if he earned it and pays his taxes, more power to him! He worked for it. Why don't I think HRH has a hand in making PR70DCAM, because it would not be the right thing to do. Why put it all on the line for a few PR70DCAMs.

wallstreetman

MadMarty,

Are you sure fear of getting busted had nothing to do with it?

MadMarty

My point exactly, if HRH had a hand in the PR/MS70s, there are plenty of people there who would be ready to turn him in. Or is he paying off everyone at CU???

TheNumish

My scenerio was just an example of what could happen. I could think of many others.

Overall PCGS does a great job grading coins. No complaint.

Sold David Hall RC coins and got paid fast. No complaint.
Is David Hall RC a good retail company? They sure are. Their prices are a little high but they sell a good product.


The question was is there a conflict of interest? No question about it

VonZipper

Marty- point home.

keithdagen

OK, here's a REAL-TIME conflict of interest.

David Hall has announced that PCGS will certify Roosies as Full Something, but that PCGS has not determined what the standards will be. From David's post on the subject on the Set Registry Forum:

We have several very high grade sets in house, thanks to a few dealer friends. We also have examples from the DHRC inventory. And we have some nice original rolls, both silver and clad, from another dealer friend. Miles, Mike Sherman, and I have been looking thru dimes and FYI...

Examples from the DHRC inventory. By using these examples to determine a standard, does DHRC get a competitive advantage in that the coins will either A. affect the published standard, or B. already be pre-screened so that DHRC has the first Full Something Roosies on the market?

DCAMFranklin

Keith- I wonder if those "dealer friends" are now happy with the money they received for those sets?? After all, they might not have been interested in selling had they known David intended to implement a Full Torch (FT) designation. That kind of "insider knowledge" gives the buyers at DHRC an unfair buying advantage, prior to the FT announcement. What say you?

Outhaul

<< <i>We have several very high grade sets in house, thanks to a few dealer friends. We also have examples from the DHRC inventory. And we have some nice original rolls, both silver and clad, from another dealer friend. Miles, Mike Sherman, and I have been looking thru dimes and FYI... >>



With that statement coming from HRH himself, he displays a propensity to use this new designation to his advantage...that worries me. He AND his "friends" would stand to gain handsomely. I think it would be impossible to look at his own property objectively, without bias, in order to determine what the standard should be. Anyone who thinks that with HRH being the consummate professional, it should not happen still couldn't guarantee it won't.

Shouldn't this be where the ANA steps in? They are, after all, the governing body with regard to numismatics. Establishing standards for a new "die state" designation should not be left in the hands of the grading companies, especially where there is a strong possibility for a conflict of interest.

Please let me know if I'm off base here.

Cheers,

Bob

Cameo CC

I don't think the Full Torch is conflict of interest. The sets, as understand, are the property of a private collector and will go back to the client. The dealer only asked PCGS to review the set for the client.

Todd

keithdagen

Todd,

That's fine on the sets from dealers, but how about DHRC's inventory? No potential conflict there?

Cameo CC

My understanding is that David Hall can not submit any coins to PCGS. He must sell the coins to another dealer who then would submit the coins for Full Torch.

Todd

braddick

One area being neglected on this Thread is the civility and ethics involved.
David Hall is an ethical man and for that reason alone wouldn't involve himself in any shady activity- let alone the legal ramifications.

Flame me at will for the above comment, but it's true and should be expressed.

TheNumish

Would an ethical man put himself in this position? Even an honest man can cross into the grey area without knowing it. Also the appereance of a conflict of interest can be just as bad as if it actually occurs. Just because someone is honest doesn't make it ok to do things a dishonest person wouldn't be trusted with.


Braddick--I flame you with the heat of a thousand burning suns. Feel better?

keithdagen

David Hall is an ethical man and for that reason alone wouldn't involve himself in any shady activity- let alone the legal ramifications.

Braddick, I agree with this, except that the perception is there, whether anything is wrong or not. I don't think that inventory of a sister company should have been used (and I would have the same beef if it was Roosevelts from Bowers' inventory).

Sunnywood

"Conflict of interest" is much too polite. It's a manufacturing operation: face value modern coins in, highly priced certified widgets out. Every now and then a new product gets introduced to stimulate demand, like FT Roosies. This is a slick operation !! I wish my business had such a simple model !!! But you can't blame DHRC or PCGS for responding to market forces by capitalizing on collector demand.

Sunnywood

Elcontador

As long as David Hall and his entities cannot submit coins for grading and the graders are unaware of whose coins they are grading, there is not an actual conflict of interest.

However, there is a perceived conflict of interest to those who are uninformed about these matters. Personally, I wouldn't let myself be put into a situation that would have to be explained in the first place. It's the "Caesar's wife's" phenomenon.

Outhaul

<< <i>As long as David Hall and his entities cannot submit coins for grading and the graders are unaware of whose coins they are grading, there is not an actual conflict of interest. >>



That is, if you can totally believe it happens this way. If there's a shadow of doubt there's a conflict of interest. If a person was as upstanding and honest as he thought he was, he wouldn't put himself in this position.

RICK15JK

Thanks !!!! Jim....

Conder101

Two statements.

One, I understand Hall still acts as a finalizer grader sometimes, and there is that "Presidential review" thing where Hall would be acting as a supreme finalizer.

Two, I believe PCGS still has a policy that their graders can not be involved in the buying and selling of coins.

Will DH divest himself of DHRC?