A Positive Ending to a Deal

TomB

About four months ago I purchased a coin using ebay from a seller located in Canada. Yes, the coin was a Canadian coin. It was a very nice coin, however, upon close inspection of it I noticed that it was struck quite poorly, so poorly, in fact, that it reduced my enjoyment in owning it. Therefore, I notified the seller I would return the coin the next day. The seller was very gracious and offered to pay my shipping both ways. I told him not to since he sold the coin to me in good faith and I thought that I should pay the shipping. Since the coin was going to Canada the local post office teller told me that I could not insure the package. I sent the coin without insurance and hoped for the best. Two months later I emailed the seller to ask if he had ever received the coin as I had never heard from him again nor had I received my refund. He had not received the coin but offered to reimburse me for the coin and the shipping even though the coin was apparently lost. I declined as I believed it was not his responsibility to shoulder the financial hit (just under $100 US) on this transaction. I chalked it up to a lost coin until tonight when I opened my mail and there was a letter from the seller stating that he just received the coin and that the package was mangled but the coin was unharmed. Included with the letter was a check for my purchase price and shipping fees. I thought that was pretty cool! The seller is Certified Coins of Canada, I do not recall the ebay ID but will look it up later and post again.

By the way, the coin was an extremely attractively toned Canadian half. I have noticed several threads recently questioning why Darkside coins are not found with great toning and the inference is that US coins are helped somehow with their toning. I don't buy this as there are several differences in their storage and mintage that can account for much of this discrepency, as long as one takes the time to understand the issues. Also, I have found many monster toned foreign coins and I don't even look for them. So, I cannot embrace those arguments as I find them spurious.

LucyBop

Its good to read a nice story like this one..

ursabear

TomB,

When you do remember the ID, please be sure to post it.

IrishMike

Great story Tom, but don't let the cat out of the bag on those nicely toned Canadian coins. They are my dark secret. This guy as well as you sound like first class people to deal with.

njcoincrank

Tom,

Glad to hear a good deed done better.

PM me. I have a few questions for you.

njcoincrank

TomB

The ebay seller ID for this person is ccc-ccdn.

numobri

A very nice HAPPY ending.I't times like this that make the hobby worth it.Congrats and have a nice day.

pandaman

Great story...I wonder what this seller had to do to get that lone negative? I hope you were able to leave + feedback. You both are to be commended.

truthteller

This story is too good! Let's invade Canada and show them.

TRUTH

ksteelheader

A happy ending is better than the other choice.......Ken

Fairlaneman

TomB

To answer pandaman's question, we both left each other positive feedback last November or December. Even though the coin at that time was lost, we trusted each other and the interaction between us was positive. Therefore, the money was not that important but the positive feedback was.

dwood

Tom,
Can you explain the relative lack of toned pieces in the World market as viewed in relation to the US market? I agree that it is likely storage practices, but are you trying to imply that there are certainly as many examples of toned World coins as there are US?

I'm still new to the darkside, but I'll bet my entire collection that what I'm seeing is not an anomaly. US coins tone differently, and far more commonly than coins of the World (when taken as a whole).

With all due respect, even the must neophyte of collectors would notice this almost instantly in today's markets.

TomB

Think of it this way; what are the pieces that are likely to be found with exceptionally attractive toning and how were they stored? For US coins the quick answers are Morgan dollars, coinage from the 1940s and 1950s, brown pack Ikes, proof Indian Head cents and any coinage widely collected as a series and that had commercial albums made for it. So, many or most of the truly attractive Morgan dollars were taken from Mint burlap bags after decades of storage, the coinage from the 1940s and 1950s was nearly always obtained from the highly reactive US Mint Set envelopes, brown pack Ikes were all sold in US government provided packaging that was made up of plastic and cardboard and most of those were kept in that packaging for some time, proof Indian Head cents were stored in US Mint tissue or, for later dates, bought in large groups by several dealers and stored in Kraft envelopes and widely collected series stored in commercial albums often are stored in albums made before the mid-1970s. Looking at this list, what do these coins have in common, for the most part? Aside from the widely collected series, they are all either proof or mint state, there is no circulated coinage listed here. Also, many of the widely collected series were also saved in mint state, though not all. What else do they have in common? They were all stored in a manner such that they were exposed to high amounts of endogenous packaging sulfur. Please also keep in mind that most of these coins tone in a manner that is simply ugly or, at best, eye appeal neutral. Relatively few of these coins tone in a manner that is widely considered attractive or positive for eye appeal or price.

How about the world market? Well, the issues were generally of lower mintage to begin with for many of these coins. This cuts down the pool for individual coins. Also, with less disposable income and fewer coins available it was more likely a higher percentage of minted coins saw circulation and, once that occurs, flow lines are rapidly removed and this really prohibits most forms of deep toning in any colors other than dark grey, navy or auburn. Aside from the previous statement, I don't believe the types of cardboard holders that have been so popular among collectors in this country over the last seventy years were made, available or popular among collectors around the world for other coinage. Additionally, I don't see the same type of packaging historically present in the coinage from other nations. They weren't as likely to be issued in a sulfur-laden enivronment.

What are the world coins that I see with great toning? How about Maundy money, Canadian Mint Set coinage, Canadian Specimen Set coinage, European crown sized commemoratives, pedigreed coinage from older and complete collections and the odd coin that one finds here. What do these have in common? Sulfur impregnated holders that the coins were issued in. Maundy money was often stored in velvet lined holders and these coins are often dark but sometimes spectacularly toned, Canadian Mint Set coinage was sold, in the 1950s and 1960s, in cardboard holders that produce some of the wildest colors I have ever seen, Canadian Specimen Set coinage was also sold in a velvet enclosed box, European crown sized commemoratives were likewise issued or stored in this type of environment and, finally, older complete collections were well cared for in velvet or Kraft envelope storage many times. What else do these coins have in common? They are nearly all mint state or proof issues that saw no circulation.

There are no doubt other examples and will also be exceptions to the rule, so to speak. However, it is pretty clear that if you take the time to look instead of state then you will find some absolutely stunning and wild world coinage. The most wildly toned copper I own is Canadian, my best toned commemorative is a German crown sized coin, we have all likely seen those stunningly toned Canadian dollars from the Specimen Sets issued within the last thirty years, I have many gorgeously toned pieces from the Phillipines. Please keep in mind, the certification frenzy is largely a US force, therefore, you will have to look through mountains of raw coins in 2x2 holders to find most of these gems. They are not displayed at US coin shows with the ooomph that similar US coins are displayed.

Have you ever gone to FUN or one of the other large shows and looked at some of the world coins from dealers who specialize in such material? Do it and you will see colors that will knock you socks off and prices that will match it.

dwood

Nice.

And it does concur with what I had already stated (that US coins tone more frequently primarily due to stoarge).

It still fails to adequately address the relative lack of toned coins in the World market in relation to the US market. Just because you have a few, and you've seen a few, doesn't mean there are lots of them out there Tom. And to say that World coins just aren't found in uncirculated condition, or stored properly, is absolute folly. Interesting that you cite Philippine coins as an example (a series I also collect). However, you fail to mention that they are a US issue. Coincidence? Could the fact that they are readily available to US collectors and dealers have any bearing on the fact that they are often found toned, similar to US coins? Perhaps they are stored, by those US collectors, in the same holders and albums as all those beautiful toned Morgans and Peace dollars? Naaahhh.....couldn't be, huh?

As to the Canadians, I'm in the dark. I'm sure they have coins that tone, as I have seen them. However, you don't find them in nearly the same quantities as you do US coins. I'm sure they're out there, and the only reason I don't see them is that I'm too stupid to know which dealers have them at the big shows.

And in closing, let me assure you that I have taken the time to look before I state. I know $hit from shinola, and I know defensiveness when I see it as well. I can't blame you. If the value of my collection was based primarily on the perception of the quality of toning, I'd legitimize it at every opportunity I could too.

gsaguy

Dwood...........the answer to your question is simple.........Swimmer hasn't yet discovered World coins.

Tom,

That was a neat story and just goes to show that there are some very honest ebay sellers out there. For the record, I've handled some really neat toned Canadian coins. Most have been proof dollars but I recently sold a monster toned '59 Canadian cent that I'd bought at the last Baltimore show.

GSAGUY

TomB

Look, David, this thread was meant to talk about the class of an ebay seller who sent a check when he didn't have to. The part about the foreign coinage was added because I have read threads referencing them lately and this was a toned Canadian coin. If you want to debate the issue I will start a new thread with my previous post and you can post away.

A few things I'd like to mention here first-
-I don't know where I ever wrote that

<< <i>World coins just aren't found in uncirculated condition, or stored properly >>

if you can find that statement I would be happy to read it.
-Your statement

<< <i>I'm sure they're out there, and the only reason I don't see them is that I'm too stupid to know which dealers have them at the big shows. >>

may be more true than you realized or intended.
-This one

<< <i>I know $hit from shinola, and I know defensiveness when I see it as well. I can't blame you. If the value of my collection was based primarily on the perception of the quality of toning, I'd legitimize it at every opportunity I could too. >>

shows that you obviously know nothing about me, nor do you know anything about my collection as my collection is probably 80% classic type that need not be toned and only part of the remainder deals with toned coinage. To me, this indicates that you don't know

<< <i>$hit from shinola >>

and that perhaps you should have a clue before you type.

dwood

GSAGUY,
He has now

dwood

Tom,
You're right. As always. Forgive my transgression in thinking that I, a mere low-life collector, not aware of your stature in our community, would be so presumptious as to make a comment about something that you brought up in your initial post. Whatever was I thinking.

I do know $hit from shinola, I assure you. And it is obvious that you aren't full of shinola

Now if you'll forgive me, I really must be leaving Oz. I'll draw the curtain for you, sir.

coinguy1

dwood, among other things you said "Just because you have a few, and you've seen a few, doesn't mean there are lots of them out there Tom"

Tom has, no doubt, seen more than a "few". I, without even looking for them, have seen many. Tom didn't sound at all defensive to me. Rather, he seemed to have made a real effort to answer you, at length, in a sincere way. His reply was both accurate and highly informative.

I get the impression that you just don't want to believe him or the facts. Sorry - thats the way I see it.

Tom - great job!

njcoincrank

Least we forget that the "quality craze" is basically an American idea. For centuries the Europeans routinely (sic) cleaned their coins, believing in the "bright is best" theory.

As far as PHI coinage is concerned, yes the are US Mint products. Most of the Gems out there came from US collections formed around the time of issue. Virgil Brand estate for example.

Most, or should I say many, of the cleaned/untoned PHI coinage has returned to the US after many decades in the far east where they were cleaned often.

njcoincrank

Morganluver

Dwood,


Sounds like you have some serious "problems". Maybe you should look for a medical forum where you can discuss these problems with professionals. Good luck?

Tom,

Thanks once again for relating a "positive" story with a happy ending instead of the typical complaint story. As always, your wisdom and careful choice of words with regards to the type and quality of your posts is not only welcome, but refreshing and I, for one, appreciate your willingness to share this experience in spite of the views of a few wackos who always seem to be looking for conflict.

danglen

Just wanted to add that I have also handled quite a few Canadian coins with pretty awesome toning, although I can't really recall many toned coins from other countries.

Gilbert

About half-way through the thread I WAS going to pop a joke like:

Tom, with your background in science, you could be qualified as a "person of interest;" I daresay no one would attempt to shortchange you, but

dwood blew that out of the water.

Anyway, excellent transaction AND synopsis of the possibilities re: toned non-US coinage. And thanks for the supplement njcoincrank.

Askari

<< <i>Least we forget that the "quality craze" is basically an American idea. For centuries the Europeans routinely (sic) cleaned their coins, believing in the "bright is best" theory. >>

Actually, both European and US collectors routinely cleaned their coins. (Moreover, the US interest in coin collecting was "imported" from Europe.) In fact, I remember as a boy being encouraged to clean my coins pulled from circulation. Toned coins have become wildly popular in the US only over the last decade; until then, "blast white" were the most desirable here. Toning has not caught on in the rest of the world like it has here. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. ATing interest and art has grown alongside the popularity of toned coins, so, yes, there are a lot more "helped" US coins on the market. Coin doctors don't work their "artistry" for free, you know.