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Here's why we all need to defend ACG...
MrEureka
Posts: 23,948 ✭✭✭✭✭
For those of you who missed the Nash Equilibrium thread, here's the link:
Nash Equilibrium
Now, here's the question:
If ACG were to grade to the PCGS or NGC standard (or "style", as some would have it
), it might influence PCGS and/or NGC to shift their own standards to maintain market share. Do we want PCGS and/or NGC to have to change their standards? If not, isn't ACG doing us all a favor by offering a third, non-threatening "niche" standard?
Send an e-mail to your favorite ANA Governor and let them know you support ACG. Do it now!
(There are a lot of you out there. Someone is likely to take this the wrong way, so I'd better not wait to tell you that I'm not really serious. Sorry to waste your time. Bye.)
Nash Equilibrium
Now, here's the question:
If ACG were to grade to the PCGS or NGC standard (or "style", as some would have it
), it might influence PCGS and/or NGC to shift their own standards to maintain market share. Do we want PCGS and/or NGC to have to change their standards? If not, isn't ACG doing us all a favor by offering a third, non-threatening "niche" standard?Send an e-mail to your favorite ANA Governor and let them know you support ACG. Do it now!
(There are a lot of you out there. Someone is likely to take this the wrong way, so I'd better not wait to tell you that I'm not really serious. Sorry to waste your time. Bye.)
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
0
Comments
Are you feeling ok?
Brian.
History may repeat itself in regards to PCGS and David Hall!
NEVER LET HIPPO MOUTH OVERLOAD HUMMINGBIRD BUTT!!!
WORK HARDER!!!!
Millions on WELFARE depend on you!
Russ, NCNE
Jeff - Thank you for bring that article to my attention. Since I had a little trouble finding it, I figured I'd copy it into this thread. Maybe some of our Forum members can provide some feedback. Thanks again, Jeff! - Andy
After reviewing the PNG-ITCA Survey in Coin World so many questions come to mind.
I wonder how many of your readers know the FACTS about some of the leading members of this Industry? Let’s just start with those that are PNG/ITCA/PCGS members and or owners. On July 20,1989 in an FTC Press Release “FTC FILES CHARGES AGAINST COIN CERTIFICATION CO. AND COIN WHOLESALER; COMPANIES TO PAY CONSUMER REDRESS”. The coin certification company that they are referring to is NCI, Numismatic Certification Institute, owned by Steve Ivy and James Halperin. NCI’s affiliate, Heritage Capital Corporation, was also charged. “Under the settlement, the companies and two individuals agreed to a permanent injunction, and Heritage and NCI agreed to contribute $1.2 million into a consumer redress plan...” FTC File No. 882-3208, Civil Action No. 89-1383 CIV-NESBITT), www.ftc.gov, Barron’s, 6/19/89, pp.16-32. NCI is still listed on the CDN price sheet.
On February 9,1990 the FTC issued the following Press Release, ”SPECIAL COUNSEL APPOINTED AT REQUEST OF FTC RECOVERS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR CONSUMERS IN RARE COIN COMPANY BANKRUPTCY.”.The release states, ”Today’s additional settlements bring total recovery in excess of $4 million.” “In February 1987, the FTC brought suit against Standard Financial Management Corp., charging, among other things, that the company falsely represented that its coins were of a specific grade, when in many cases the coins were of a significantly inferior grade...
Shortly after the FTC suit, the Special Counsel initiated bankruptcy proceedings brought various actions against several principals and suppliers of Standard Financial Management Corp. He has succeeded in obtaining settlements from supplier Kevin Lipton and former Standard Financial owner James Halperin for $1.4 million and $1.3 million, respectively.” FTC File No. X870002, www.ftc.gov.
On August 17,1990 the FTC issued a press release regarding PCGS. “FTC CHARGES COIN CERTIFICATION CO. MISREPRESENTS OBJECTIVITY OF ITS COIN GRADING SERVICES; COMPANY AGREES TO SETTLEMENT” The FTC charged that “PCGS misled consumers by falsely claiming that it provides consistent, objective grading of coins and that investment in PCGS-certified rare coins eliminates all the risk associated with the grading of coins.” PCGS/David Hall was charged and placed on probation for 2 years. Civil Action No. 90-1982, www.ftc.gov, New York Times, 8/17/90 p.D2, The Wall Street Journal, 8/17/90, pp.C1,C12.
These are the people who are behind this Survey. They are all PNG,ITCA and PCGS members today. Together they were “fined in excess of $4 million.” They will tell us that they disqualified themselves due to ownership and/or partial ownership. Of the estimated 221 PNG members, only four have dealt with Accugrade in the past two years. In February 2001 PNG sent a letter to members who were dealing in ACG coins threatening expulsion. Of the estimated 430 survey forms mailed, 141 were reported filled out and returned, @32 percent. Virtually 68 percent refused to be party to this sham survey.
The number of PNG and ITCA members who did not participate speaks louder than the 141 who did. 141 monopolist PNG-ITCA members, who are predominantly PCGS dealers, responded out of an estimated 5,000 dealers nationwide (as listed in CDN ‘02 Dealer Directory) to presumably speak for “The Coin Industry.” These 141 find ACG “unacceptable”...this represents @2.8 percent of the Coin Industry. 98 percent of PNG members have never used or dealt in ACG. This survey shows how out of touch PNG-ITCA is with the Coin Industry.
The fact that PNG has pressured their dealers into NOT dealing in ACG coins, as evidenced in a letter dated 2/28/01 sent out by Robert Bruggerman, Executive Director, then surveys them in regards to USING ASA Accugrade... mystifies me!
They find ACG to be “unacceptable” in almost all of their “categories”:
Detecting counterfeits—we have graded four counterfeits out of 300,000 coins in the last three years. I believe that gives Accugrade a 99.9999 percent accuracy rate, we have resolved three and one is pending, how is this unacceptable?
Customer service, cost, turnaround time, quality of holder—We take great exception to being found generally “unacceptable” in these areas, this furthers my position that these dealers have never even used our service...in 18 years of business we have never had a major complaint, lawsuit, or Government charge. We pride ourselves in out Customer Service Dept., our cost is one of the lowest in the industry. We have never missed a designated turnaround time and the quality of our Holders surpasses all the other services and I challenge them on this matter. Our holders are American-made by a New England craftsman of the highest quality Dupont acrylic and are the safest on the market, no PVC inserts!
As to Grading guarantees, General marketability and Availability of pricing information—We know these are our weak areas and that is for the following reasons...we are a small company who has been set upon by a Big Corporation and counterfeits have been submitted to our service, in the past, knowingly in the hopes to discredit us. We stand behind the authenticity and the consistency of our grading. Regarding marketability, ACG coins have done very well on e-Bay but CDN still refuses to list them even though CDN lists NCI which is out of business and was sited by the FTC. We were led to believe that when ACG coins reached 80,000 units CDN would list ACG, today we are at 300,000 units, when asked again recently by a California PCGS dealer when ACG will be listed, Sean Downings replied “we’re waiting for them to go away.” When a California entrepreneur/collector came up with a pricing Web site and publication listing ACG prices along with other certified coins, his Web site somehow crashed and he was soon out of business.
PCGS can’t allow pricing information for any of the small grading services because that would destroy their Franchise. In a free-market system competition should be encouraged and choices allowed to the public. We are not afforded this in the Coin Industry, which certainly raises issues of ANTITRUST and RACKETEERING!
I will leave you with this thought...The S.S. Central America...coins sold exclusively by Heritage, David Hall, Bowers and Merena and others, mostly PNG members/PCGS dealers. Over 5,000 coins that had been buried at sea for over 120 years encrusted with coral were treated with all kinds of chemicals to remove the encrustations, were miraculously restored to PCGS MS-65 at $15,000.00 a coin. The PCGS holders do not say SEA SALVAGED nor SALT WATER nor CORAL ENCRUSTED, no they have been graded by PCGS as MINT STATE. Have these people changed from 1989, you decide for yourself at www.ftc.gov.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>we are a small company who has been set upon by a Big Corporation and counterfeits have been submitted to our service, in the past, knowingly in the hopes to discredit us. >>
Boo hoo.
Russ, NCNE
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Russ, NCNE
Ken
al h.
keets wrote this in another thread of which I totally agree: "but as is usual for this whole ordeal, any contradictory reply or statement not in line with the defendants is considered blasphemy."
I think people misinterpret the quesioning of the tactics and/or the need to "take down" ACG with SUPPORT of ACG. They are mutually exclusive concepts. One can disagree with the method and still NOT be in support of ACG. The above smacks of "Love it or leave it" mentality.
I noticed that Rick Snow posted to a previous thread on this and personally I wouldn't let him anywhere near a witness box. This is part of what he wrote: This is very good news. Although I am not named in the suit, if I was I would mount a counter-suit against Accugrade and gather any and all people who have been hurt by buying overgraded coins in their holders and turn it into a class-action suit. This is from Eagle Eye's website: "Not all certified coins are equal. We have seen coins that are in reality no better than MS-63's sitting in MS-66 holders. Our records prove that over 1/2 of the Flying Eagle and Indian Cents in slabs today are overgraded or just plain ugly."
He has a service to certify the certification. Considering that he only "certifies" PCGS and NGC coins I assume that a lot of the coins that he is referring to also reside in those holders. Is there a class action suit there as well?
The bottom line for me is that this is NOT science and an opinion is just that, an opinion. Some opinions are better than others but they are still opinions and do not necessarily have right or wrong attached to them.
Joe.
PERIOD
Go BIG or GO HOME. ©Bill
ACG still sucks though.
Text of Ryana's link:
Accused upscale same-sex prostitute Diane Hager is arrested again.
Monday, May 17, 2004
SEMINOLE COUNTY , Fl (WASARRESTED) -- Accused high-class same-sex prostitute Diane Hager, was arrested on North Main Street in Seminole County yesterday afternoon for driving after her license had been revoked.
A police officer conducting a routine license plate check of Ms. Hager's 1992 Nissan Sentra found that her driver's license had been revoked "for being a habitual traffic offender," said Lt. Jim Bob of Seminole County police.
This is Hager's second arrest in a week. Last Tuesday she was arrested at her home in Seminole County during a sting operation in which a female police officer posed as a customer seeking sex.
Police released Hager last night on personal recognizance. Police still are investigating the possibility that Hager is linked to a prostitution ring.
<< <i>Not to worry. If ACG were to actually start grading properly, we still have NTC slabbing plenty of garbage.
Russ, NCNE >>
Russ,,,,,,,,,ssshhh. Some of my best steals have been out of NTC slabs I've gotten dirt cheap, cracked out and submited to PCGS.
Keep this to yourself, please.
John Marnard Keynes, The Economic Consequences of the Peace, 1920, page 235ff
<< <i>what i find interesting about this whole thing is that everyone seems to be in agreement that ACG is a lousy service. most are also in agreement that the company is on it's way out due mainly to a more informed collector base. the mystifying thing to me is why so many feel the need to help the free market system so much. if ACG is really as bad as so many claim, the marketplace will make the decision that they should disappear without the efforts of those who envision themselves as Consumer Protectors for the coin industry. i feel that is what the real issue is. >>
Keep it up keets, people will remember what you write.
Are you really this dense or are you playing a game?
The coin market well knows what ACG graded coins are and treats them as such. The problem is, if you don't already know this, is that ACG graded coins are marketed toward people who are not well informed, people who don't know how to grade for themselves. Before Alan Hager started selling his ACG coins on eBay, they employed high pressure telemarketers selling to people who didn't have a clue about coins.
Your continued defense of Hager and ACG truly amazes me.
why do you insist on misinterpreting everything i write as some type of a defense for ACG and the Hagars or some type of assertion that ACG grades correctly or is a reputable service?? please go and cut/paste anything i've posted that defends the Hagars/ACG into this thread.
as is your oft repeated paranoid reply, i'm not going to go and edit anything, nor have i, for fear that it will come and bite me later. go read the post by UncleJoe again, he gets what you miss. as for the peolpe who folishly by ACG graded coins or any raw or encapsulated coins without understanding what they're doing, well, caveat emptor!!!!
al h.
WS