Can you explain MS 70?

MrEureka · March 8, 2003 7:45AM

Sheldon created the 70 point scale, but did he actually state that a 70 needs to be absolutely perfect? If so, did he define "perfect"? If not Sheldon, who first came up up with the idea that a 70 is perfect? Or does MS 70 mean something else?

airplanenut · March 8, 2003 7:46AM

MS70 is like PR70- there are no flaws whatsoever on the coin.

JJacks · March 8, 2003 7:48AM

I am no expert on Sheldon's works, but here is a link that explains it a bit. I think Sheldon really went up to 70 because "MINT" 1794 Large cents at the time cost 70 times more then low grade ones. I don't know how detailed his scale was when it was first made. Maybe someone can find a link with more details.

I-70 Grading Scale explaination from Sahara coins

JJacks

jeffnpcb · March 8, 2003 7:51AM

Boy o Boy, that is splitting a fine hair three ways. One tough cookie to get, but when you do, it's like touching heaven!

Julian · March 8, 2003 7:54AM

I am quoting from Early American Cents, 1st edition by Sheldon, page 42

"For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color. Condition 60 means Mint State. Condition 70 means perfect Mint State."

Beyond that, when it came into broader use in the early 70's, it always meant Perfect.

sinin1 · March 8, 2003 7:57AM

Andy, didn't you grade at PCGS at one time? How many 70's did you give?

MrEureka · March 8, 2003 8:00AM

For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color

So you could have a 70RD, but not a 70RB or 70BN. Interesting. Could you have a 69BN?

Julian · March 8, 2003 8:04AM

A slight mellowing would probably eliminate the RB & BN, according to Sheldon. I believe in current practice, that if you have a toned PERFECT coin of any metal, you could still have a 70.

MrEureka · March 8, 2003 8:05AM

Andy, didn't you grade at PCGS at one time? How many 70's did you give?

I'm not sure but I think the first 70 coin came after I left in 1988. Even if I'm wrong about that, I never graded modern issues, so I never got to grade a coin 70. I think the highest grade I ever used was 68, including once for for a 1910-S Saint! It was nice.

oreville · March 8, 2003 9:02AM

You want ME to explain MS 70?????

I still can't explain MS 69?

Gilbert · March 9, 2003 1:52AM

"... exactly as it left the dies ..."

That's the kind of grading that ANACS used to do. Theoritically, every coin minted is MS70 at some point. I don't think so.

I too was under the impression that, again, theoretically a Sheldon 70 denotes a coin whose value is 70 times that of a basal state coin.

In any event, I expect an MS70 NOT to be perfect, but one that exhibits the qualities delineated either PCGS or the ANA grading guide -- whichever standard you are using. I really don't know why people insist a coin has to be "perfect."

Is anything ever "perfect?"

mdwoods · March 9, 2003 1:59AM

THe following is from PGGS's lingo page

This is for "Mint State" (the grade) and "70" (the numerical designation of that grade). A perfect coin! Even with 5X magnification there are no marks, hairlines or luster breaks in evidence. The luster is vibrant, the strike is razor-sharp, and the eye appeal is the ultimate. Note: Minor die polish and light die breaks are not considered to be defects on circulation strike coins.

parkave · March 9, 2003 4:28AM

This is taken verbatim from the Fifth Edition of Official ANA Grading Standards for United States Coins published by the American Numismatic Association:

MS70--The perfect coin. Has very attractive sharp strike and original luster of the highest quality for the date and mint. No contact marks are visible under magnification. There are absolutely no hairlines, scuff marks or defects. Attractive and outstanding eye appeal. Copper coins must be bright with full original color and luster.

JOHNandBEA · March 9, 2003 10:00AM

What about spots, all my SAE'S are 69, but two have spots..can a 70 have spots?

John

nwcs · March 9, 2003 10:21AM

Remember that the ANA's scale is based on Sheldon's but isn't his. Also, market grading factors in. In this way, it is good. Say a coin is weakly struck and immediately taken off the dies and preserved. Its technical grade is MS-70. But the weak strike shows the planchet texture and planchet hits (that didn't get struck out). It'd market grade at 64. This is the failure of a pure technical system. Just as a pure market system fails in other areas. Let's say there was a grease filled die with a strike through a cloth. It'd still be MS-70 technically if taken off the dies immediately. But it wouldn't market grade near that. More like a 63.

dwood · March 9, 2003 10:35AM

I thought the numbers Sheldon first assigned had to do with the cost of a specific coin in a specific grade (G-4, G-8 were Good coins at $4 or $8) he was collecting at the time?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS · March 9, 2003 10:43AM

Isn't ms 70 the stuff they sell in a plastic(pvc) bottle?If you don't dunk a coin in ms 70 it will not grade ms 70.

Stewart

michael · March 9, 2003 4:08PM

for me 70 doesnot exist it is fictional

currently in this market 70 is defined as a number on a specific grading services holder ....ONLY!

i guess my best explaination of 70 is 10x to 30x the retail price of the exact same slabbed 69 coin

just make sure you do not break this 70 coin out of its holder as then you lose 80 to 95% of its value

sincerely michael

if you have a 70 coin in a holder and you break it out of its holder and the price difference is super great then that by itself tells you something

70 coins are not good or bad IN FACT THEY ARE FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! but if you buy them make sure you understand what you are buying
and only buy for fun with discretionary funds

SINCERELY michael

wallstreetman · March 9, 2003 4:28PM

I dont think he ever expected anyone to ever be arrogant enough to claim theyve seen or held a perfect(MS or PR70) coin!

JohnButlerfromLV · March 9, 2003 4:47PM

<< <i>For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color

Could you have a 69BN? >>

Of course I could, but then again, it would only be my opinion.
I wouldn't sell that coin, I would only let you look at it. It may be the only one in the universe.

JohnButlerfromLV · March 9, 2003 4:49PM

<< <i>Andy, didn't you grade at PCGS at one time? How many 70's did you give?

I'm not sure but I think the first 70 coin came after I left in 1988. Even if I'm wrong about that, I never graded modern issues, so I never got to grade a coin 70. I think the highest grade I ever used was 68, including once for for a 1910-S Saint! It was nice.

>>

Good job on that 10-S. Rumor has it that it is now a NGC 68* which increased the value 5 times a regular MS68.

John Butler
Sahara Coins
Ex-PCGS Grader

Steve27 · March 9, 2003 8:28PM

The practical definition used at PCGS is that a MS70 coin is flawless under 5X (I think it's 5X) magnification. This leaves a lot of room for flaws which can be seen under a microscope.

kobrakoins · March 9, 2003 9:37PM

Perfect

michael · March 10, 2003 2:14AM

very astute observation kobra and since nothing is perfect, 70 doesnot exist so by defination you are correct

are there coins close to 70? yes 69 but more often and most all, if not all of the time a ms/pf69 coin is post 1950

sincerely michael

most of the value if not all of the value of 70 coins rely on basically three things

the specific holder it is in
the addition of coins to a posted specific set listing
the perception of some collectors which base their accessment of 70 graded coins on expectations and emotions and current market acceptance

but when all is said and done it is the coin not the3 holder and if broken out of its respective holder if the coin loses a gresat deal of its value then the proof is in the pudding so to speak

but if you like these coins these 70 coins great!!!!!!! buy them for fun and with discretionary funds!!

if not then let the buyer beware!

sincerely michael

nwcs · March 10, 2003 2:17AM

There can be 70s if the standard says no visible flaws with 5x mag. It's all based on the standard. However, if you pull a coin right off the dies, it should be 70 automatically. It's as-struck. Isn't that what a 70 is? What's perfect? Perfect is as-struck. So shouldn't almost all proofs be 70s? In the vast majority of cases, they are as-struck.

Baley · March 10, 2003 2:36AM

A coin is MS70 when you can look at it and say, "this coin is as perfect as this type of coin can be" and you cannot find any surface disturbance whatsoever. The coin must be fully struck, it must have full luster, it must have no marks of any kind that disturb the surface, including spots (it may have a slight and even mellowing of color, but must not have discrete dots or specks nor heavy toning) The coin is a perfect representation of the design.

the coin will be "as struck" as long as the strike was perfect (and by these uses of 'perfect', we mean reasonably perfect, not absolutely perfect, because if you use increased magnification, you will find irregularities, including the surface "crunchiness" we call luster)

any coin can theoretically come in MS70, but for all intents and purposes, no one has truly seen a perfect business strike coin minted before the 1960's. The vast majority of MS70s are modern mint set and bullion coins that are not really business strikes but have been handled with care since leaving the dies.

Generally, the older the coin, the rarer in high MS grades.

michael · March 11, 2003 4:17PM

ttt

Can you explain MS 70?

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