Ok- There is a distinction between 'Cleaning' and 'Currating'. How about Repairs and Doctoring?

braddick

I had the opportunity to look at a tremendous 1799 XF40 Bust dollar. It had amazing, hard gray surfaces and looked very choice. After studying the Bust dollar for a bit I was then told it had a repaired hole at 12:00.

I was floored. I not only missed it the first go around, but could not find any signs of a repair on the second pass, this time knowing it was there!

In you opinion- what is the difference between REPAIRING a coin (smoothing scratches, repairing holes- fixing rim dings) and Doctoring?

Or- is there NO difference in your mind?

-I would think it is a repair if I own it to keep, but if it is sold without disclosure that 'repair' morphs into 'doctoring'. I guess it is about intent but that doesn't protect the next buyer in line after me.
What do you think? One in the same?

LucyBop

I've got a 53s Frankie that needs the bell lines repaired....

Baley

Braddick, I don't try to draw a discrete line between related activities and label one "repair" and the other "doctoring" and never the twix shall meet. instead, it's on a continuum, and the relationship cannot even be called linear or even planar, but must be viewed on a multidimentional lattice.

that said, anything "done" to a coin to change it in any way, in my opinoin, falls under the umbrella of an "alteration", and as such cannot be categorically called "doctoring" (eg bad) or "repair" (generally good, whether disclosed or not, a different issue) but must be viewed per coin, on an individual basis.

for example, the dollar you speak of, first the hole was drilled. ok for what ever reason it was done, and whenever it was done, it is a done deal. the coin then had a hole, and was worse off.

then, later, it was expertly repaired, and whatever label you want to stick on the activity of plugging the coin, smoothing the surface, and blending the color, it did the coin some good, and a lot more good than if it was left a hole, or inexpertly plugged with an ugly lump of solder.

now, the real issue is disclosure between buyer and seller. whatever you call it, the repair must be disclosed, IF KNOWN ABOUT. as for the next buyer and the next and the next, at some point, if the {facts} whatever they are, are forgotten or whatever, well, that's just what happens.

This begs another question though, one that is purely rhetorical: if the change, whether it be a repair or accelerated toning or whatever, is TRULY Undetectable, what is the difference?

CLASSICS

i dont think so...... cleaned, dipped, whats the diffrence? none......... rim filed or hole filled in....its been repaired......... a.t. , original surface has been altered.......currating.... a fancy word for cleaning....doctoring is a numismatic term that has been applied to coins that are not original, or have been altered from thier original state as made.........

Outhaul

Pat,

I had a beautiful classic commem with a huge thumbprint on the obverse. I sent it back to NGC and had it removed and reholdered. Was this doctoring? I don't think so. I could have very easily cracked it myself and removed the print (like many on this board have admitted doing) but chose to have it done professionally. My only reason was because I'm always afraid of damaging the coin when cracking the slab.

Now...removing dings, laser treatment, filling holes, etc., THAT'S doctoring! Just my opine.

Cheers,

Bob

nwcs

To me, it is a question of intent. This dealer did right by disclosing the repair. However, the holder should have noted the repair beforehand. The difference between doctoring and repair is disclosure.

DesertLizard

It's all the same...altered, changed, restored. Not original.

However...how many have toured some of the centuries old castles/churches in Europe? Guess what? Every one of them restored! That's the only way you could ever visit them as if they were not restored you would be getting beaned by huge stones as you gawked at the dungeon! Remember back in the middle ages castles did not have a gift shop or electricity! Today they do and can no longer be called "original".

Early on those castles which had been restored did not hold the same allure for me as an unrestored but in ruins one. I then realized the only way of preserving such monuments, and be able to visit, was to in fact restore them and keep them around for the next generation.

Shouldn't it be the same for coins? Just wondering and I keep wavering on this one.

shirohniichan

I like the idea of being able to buy scarce coins at low prices, so I'm not against selling them with full disclosure. I'd rather be able to look at my coins than keep them locked upin a vault, so I like the idea of being able to have a low-value collection I can keep at home.

If anyone repairs coins and doesn't disclose the details of the repair or the buyer resells it without making full disclosure, however, there is a problem. As I said, I like the idea of having inexpensive coins at home. If someone repairs a coin, doesn't disclose the fact, and sells it for the problem-free coin price, it defeats the whole purpose.

dorkkarl

plugging holes definitely falls under the category of "doctoring". it is a perfectly legitimate and beneficial numismatic pursuit. i have several doctored coins that i am proud to own.

curating, ie rinsing spilled coffee off a eisenhower dollar - that is NOT doctoring the coin.

K S

numispro

I think that there is a distinction between repairs and doctoring.

A repair is done to cure an obvious defect, such as a hole, a loop soldered to the coin, or a colonial broken in half.

Doctoring is done to fool the grading services. They would rarely miss a repair, using the above definition.