Rational grading and cabinet friction.
ANACONDA
Posts: 4,692 ✭
I am in possession of a coin right now. It's in a 65 holder and it's being offered to me at like $47,000. I am not buying the coin but it
was offered to me.
It's in either a PCGS or NGC holder. Yes, i know which one, but it doesn't matter. I don't want to cloud the issue.
Greysheet is like $40,000 on the coin. The coin is an early piece....it is a fabulous piece...gorgeous blues and turquoise and has a pittman provenance.
BUT.....
it has interruptions in the toning in the unprotected areas on the obverse and it has cabinet friction (it's dated before 1800) on the
highest point on the eagle's reverse.
So, i can just hear what goes on in the grading room......
Finalizer......."Well, it's either circulated or not circulated. I think it's a gorgeous unc with slight cabinet friciton."
Advisor......"Well, i think it's been super lightly cirulated and is the best 58 i've seen this month."
"Well, i'm the finalizer and it's going into a 65 holder."
Which is where it is today, in an old 65 holder.
Guess which grade the coin would have gotton if Mr. 65 was sick and Mr. 58 was the temporary finalizer that day?
If the coin had been graded using the rational method as i have outlined in other posts, it probably wouldn't have been put into a
65 holder but the opinion of the guy who said it was 58 would not have been ignored and ......but it wouldn't have been 58ed either.
In my opinion, deductions should be taken for disruptions in luster and for cabinet friction but those are not evidence of circulation.
The rational grading methodology (grading with averages of all the grades independantly formulated) would arrive at a simlar
result more often and in closer proximity to previously given grades and would not be prone to the wide swings that consensus grading is prone to.
We have all heard about 65s getting AUed or body bagged when cracked out. Rational grading gets it done right the first time.
adrian
was offered to me.
It's in either a PCGS or NGC holder. Yes, i know which one, but it doesn't matter. I don't want to cloud the issue.
Greysheet is like $40,000 on the coin. The coin is an early piece....it is a fabulous piece...gorgeous blues and turquoise and has a pittman provenance.
BUT.....
it has interruptions in the toning in the unprotected areas on the obverse and it has cabinet friction (it's dated before 1800) on the
highest point on the eagle's reverse.
So, i can just hear what goes on in the grading room......
Finalizer......."Well, it's either circulated or not circulated. I think it's a gorgeous unc with slight cabinet friciton."
Advisor......"Well, i think it's been super lightly cirulated and is the best 58 i've seen this month."
"Well, i'm the finalizer and it's going into a 65 holder."
Which is where it is today, in an old 65 holder.
Guess which grade the coin would have gotton if Mr. 65 was sick and Mr. 58 was the temporary finalizer that day?
If the coin had been graded using the rational method as i have outlined in other posts, it probably wouldn't have been put into a
65 holder but the opinion of the guy who said it was 58 would not have been ignored and ......but it wouldn't have been 58ed either.
In my opinion, deductions should be taken for disruptions in luster and for cabinet friction but those are not evidence of circulation.
The rational grading methodology (grading with averages of all the grades independantly formulated) would arrive at a simlar
result more often and in closer proximity to previously given grades and would not be prone to the wide swings that consensus grading is prone to.
We have all heard about 65s getting AUed or body bagged when cracked out. Rational grading gets it done right the first time.
adrian
0
Comments
the coin is obviously uncirculated, with full luster, and it's original uncleaned skin, except for the very highest points, which exhibit very minor friction, as evidenced by a slight darkening. the strike, marks, remaining luster, and overall eye appeal say MS63 or MS64. the slight rub says AU58.
you know what? it's in a MS62 holder, and cost me MS62 money.
would I be thrilled to get it into a 63 holder? YOU BET!
do I think it could just as easily come back 58? YOU BET!
Is it going to stay in the current slab until further notice YOU BET!
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
What exactly is right for this coin will not be what exactly is right for the next nearly id-
entical coin. What exactly is right for your estimation of this coin is not exactly right for
everyone's estimation of this coin. Why should and how can all the attributes of a coin
be boiled down to a single number that all parties can agree to FOR ALL TIME!
<< <i>it has interruptions in the toning in the unprotected areas on the obverse and it has cabinet friction (it's dated before 1800) on the highest point on the eagle's reverse >>
interruptions in the toning, or the luster? if the toning is interrupted, then there is no problem, it's an unc. if the luster is interrupted, then imo, NOT unc.
i don't buy that "cabinet friction" baloney either. far too many sliders get into unc slabs these days - because it's not wear, it's "cabinet friction".
K S
If a coin has wear it can't be uncirculated right?
From a technical standpoint this is certainly true. However a coin can have "cabinet friction" and still be accepted by today's market at a low-end mint state value. Imagine if you will a real nice uncirculated 1794 Flowing Hair dollar. During the 200+ years since it was struck, it may have resided in a bureau drawer in the early 1800's, been stored in a velvet lined mahogany coin cabinet for 50 or 75 years, and then spent the majority of the 20th century in a 2x2 manila envelop. The coin is uncirculated and has frosty mint luster, however the reverse luster is a little disrupted from being slid around on the velvet pad in the coin cabinet. Does this coin technically have wear? Yes. Is it worth AU money? No Way!...This coin will easily trade for middle grade uncirculated price. The overall originality and eye appeal of the coin allows the visible friction to only down grade it to a lower grade of uncirculated.
(Part of an article on obsevations on early dollars Written by Jim Stoutjesdyk and Taken from the Heritage Insider June 1998)
I think most seated coinage graded in mint state are sliders and the majority of seated halves i've personally examined graded m.s. 67 have huge luster breaks in the unprotected areas. M.s. my a__!!!
I never buy mint state coins with large "cabinet friction" luster breaks ever.
My own opionion is that if cabinet friction does exist, than it is wear [even if the surfaces are as clean as a technical 67] that is still a form of wear deserving at best au 58.
I recently saw a m.s. 65 bust 10 dollar gold piece on one of my favorite dealers webites [obviously a very expensive coin] There was only the slightest evidence of luster left on either side the coin near the rims only. m.s. 65 ??? I would have guessed au 50 at best. [I sure wouldn't crack that one out and resubmit it] !!! barberlover