coinguy1, you finally agreed w/ dorkkarl!!!

dorkkarl

in another thread, coinguy1 states:



<< <i>If the grading is super tight, contrary to what many have said here and in other recent dealer-bashing threads, collectors can UNKNOWINGLY get hurt as well. When they get their coins graded lower than they should and aren't aware of it, they often sell the coins for far less than they could/should get for them. >>



isn't this exactly what i've stated numerous times before, & been told it was a foolish claim? i have stated before that plastic co's do not guarantee against undergraded coins, & therefore, you get only a 50% guarantee, for the exact reason you mention.

mark, correct me if i'm wrong, but that is exactly what you're discussing, no?

K S

edited to add: title of other thread is "What the heck is Legend saying"

nwcs

You know, Karl, we need to start calling you WiseKarl instead of DorkKarl. I have to admit I've come to understand (and agree with) much of what you've said on the boards.

LucyBop

Do I need to start another "Disagreeing with Dorkkark thread?" I disagree!

Gilbert

Karl,

I had put this a bit more eloquently before my system crashed for the umpth time tis a.m., so, if it isn't as delicately put, forgive me.

I struggle to understand the 50% only guarantee. Before the guarantee applies, each submitter to PCGS has an obligation to accept or challenge the assigned grade. Basically, it is up to you to correct PCGS. It's true. Check membership/submission requirements.

Of course, that begs the question of what service does this provide to collector's, who let's say, don't know in the first place -- are submitting to gauge where coins fall on the scale. Unfortunately, submission privileges aren't designed for that purpose. They should use "authorized dealers" with submission privileges; although they may not make those challenges, they ARE as obligated to verify the accuracy of the grading service.

It may not sound nice, but, it is a fact of submitting.

The guarantee is written to cover the slabbed coins you acquire. You buy a 65, question it, win and get reimbursed. You buy an undergraded coin, you lose no money. You submit a coin -- well your obligation to get it right kicks in. Once encapsulated PROPERLY, the guarantee applies.

NumisEd

Gilbert, what happens when you submit a coin and it is undergraded? Do you have to resubmit it 4 times to get the correct grade? Sounds like a scam to me.

MadMonk

A few years ago, I sold a few of my coins that were clearly VERY nice for the slabbed grade. They fetched very good money. Knowledgeable collectors probably always fair better with undergraded slabs than novices. I guess that the bluesheet prices prove that slabs have been overgraded for the most part.
Market acceptance from knowledgeable collectors of a grade is quite differant than a novices.
I always tell new collectors to go to a good coin show, armed with a basic grading knowledge of the grade they are collecting in, and look at all the attributes in those slabs. All in all, I'd rather it be on the tight side than the loose side.

coinguy1

Karl,

A few comments on your post:

I made my point once, not 23,273,687 times (that was the last count I tallied for you) like you did.

Also, as mentioned previously by many - like it or not, the purpose of the PCGS grading guarantee is to protect the buyer, not the seller. So, yes, it is a 50% guarantee in that regard and I haven't seen anyone claim otherwise.

Lastly, "I disagree."

dorkkarl

gilbert, here's the deal.

as you put it, "You submit a coin -- well your obligation to get it right kicks in"

however, bear in mind that you are assuming that the submitter has the expertise to recognize an undergraded coin. what newbie does? for that matter, how many collectors necessarily can tell? have you ever had a coin undergraded by pcgs? how do you know?

sure, what you say works great if you've been around the block a few times, ie. you are mr. expert grader extraordinairre. but take a casual glance through the dozens of "submission results" threads bandied about, how often does the poster complain that his coin was undergraded?

so you beg the question "how do you know" whether your coin was undergraded? after all, the final decision rests w/ pcgs, according to the understood rules. isn't that rather ironic? pcgs is always right, whether they are or not. kind of a conundrum, isn't it?

just try & show a dealer a blatantly undergraded pcgs coin, & see if he offers you the true worth for it. then you'd understand why i crack all my coins out.

bottom line: it makes no sense to claim that the submitter is responsible for determining if the slabed grade is right or not - the coin was sent in to get the right grade in the 1st place! so, as numised points out, how many times do i have to send my coins in before the right grade comes back? it's rather an absurd game, isn't it?

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>like it or not, the purpose of the PCGS grading guarantee is to protect the buyer, not the seller. >>

that's great, mark. & i don't disagree w/you. that's not my point.

how many dealers will actually tell their customers this? of course, your famous, but how often do you suppose i've walked up to a dealer, & he's explained to me that my undergraded coins are not protected by pcgs?

my answer: never. not once. the dealer will gladly buy every undergraded coin i have, & resubmit them himself.

believe me, i am fully aware of what you're saying. something tells me that newbies do not. funny thing is, pcgs doesn't exactly go out of their way to make it clear, either.

put it a different way: the glory of slabing is advertised as a way for unknowledgeable coin-collectors to collect w/out fear. yet, aren't the unknowledgeable collectors the very ones who are hurt by the lack of a 100% guarantee?

final thought if i've made the point 23,273,687 times, does that mean you agree w/ me 23,273,687 times?

K S

coinguy1

Karl,

We're pretty much in complete agreement (today).

Gilbert

NumisEd

So far, I have only submitted any coin once. If PCGS assessment is way out of line on an issue I believe I understand, then .... to hell with their assessment. Should the opportunity arise to dispose of said coin, I disclose BUT my opinion (providing it is educated) shall prevail. Either the recipient accepts it or they don't. I won't be bound by PCGS (or anyother), on those issues I'm comfortable with.

DorkKarl

It is not my intention to be argumentative, but, third party independent grading is not designed to inform the uninformed. People may use it for that purpose, and may also be somewhat successful, but that is not its intent. It IS to provide a professional assessment as to the aspect of a coin you submit it for, ie, certification, authenticity, grade, attribution and today --- value.

I think you are applying the same rule to two differenct scenarios. One is buying a PCGS certified coin for which the guarantee is already in-place, and the other is the function of getting a coin encapsulated, after which, the guarantee becomes effective.

edited to add: I don't consider myself mr. expert extraodinairre, but I do feel like I've been around the block a few times. and, I think I have seen numerous people complaining about their coins being undergraded. Now if you asked the opposite, I'd have to answer ... not many that I can recall.

dorkkarl

coinguy1 - DOH!!!

do you have a show sched.?

K S

coinguy1

Karl,

Here is my tentative show schedule for the next several months. We do not have a table at each show listed, so please check with me if you want to try to get together. PS - this is secret information, for your eyes only.

March 12-15 Baltimore
March 20 - March 22 Charlotte.
April 3-5 Santa Clara
April 29-May 3 CSNS St. Louis
May 27-31 Long Beach
June 25-26 Chicago
July 24- Aug. 3 pre ANA and ANA in Balt.
Sept. 16-20 Long Beach
Nov. 12-15 Balt.
Nov. 20-21 Santa Clara

dorkkarl

gilbert, i do not agree. quotes from pcgs's own webpages give me the impression that their service is indeed targeted at non-experts. here are just 3:

the difference in an MS65 coin and an MS64 coin may be virtually undetectable to the untrained eyeuntrained obviously implying a non-expert

"a coin buyer could be victimized by product misrepresentation"

these elements have created unprecedented public support for the rare coin industry ... & the general "public" would be comprised mostly of non-experts

in reading through the website, i just don't get the impression that pcgs's intent is to filter all but expert coin collectors. maybe i am wrong, though.

K S

Russ

<< <i>however, bear in mind that you are assuming that the submitter has the expertise to recognize an undergraded coin. what newbie does? >>



Karl,

One could easily argue that a "newbie" shouldn't be directly submitting coins themselves and that if they choose, as a "newbie", to stick their toe in these shark infested waters they should be prepared to be bitten. I know, I have the scars. You know what, though? I'm glad I paid the tuition, and I've no doubt that I'll be paying more.

Mark,

That's a disappointing show schedule. I don't see any on there that I'll be able to attend. I think you should add the PNNA Annual Convention coming up April 25-27.

Russ, NCNE

braddick

At any moment I'm expecting a pig to fly past my window.

nwcs

Mark, you're going to be in Charlotte?? I'll have to see if I can find you when I get there.

CoinJunkie

Bump to stimulate contributions to the Mr Eureka giveaway thread. I figured it might help a lot of
the newer members of the forum (including me!) to get more of a flavor of the protagonists.