If it's "Not About the Money", what is the motivation to cross?

braddick

Why? If it isn't for some financial gain- same COIN- more MONEY, what is the motivation to cross from NGC to PCGS or to place a "PQ++" into another, higher numbered insert PCGS holder?

If it isn't about the "grade" (READ: Money), what is it for?

I guess the days of building a worthwhile collection and then holding it for twenty years or so before placing it at auction are over. Now it appears the rage is"'instant gratification". "I want my 100% profit, and I want it NOW" via the Crack-Out: Upgrade Format is alive and well.

I believe that type of thinking is more damaging overall to Coin Collecting than PCGS "tightening" up and refusing crossovers/upgrades.

dorkkarl

stupidity?

K S

LucyBop

For me its about building a Registry set, If I can cross a nice coin into a PCGs slab, then it goes straight into my set...

RYK

Braddick, I agree with you completely. As a collector, I care very little about the actual number assigned by PCGS/NGC. I am more interested in the grading company's authentication and screening out problem coins that I myself might miss. Otherwise, it is all about the money.

MadMarty

I agree with both of you. For example I find a nice ANACS Morgan, I like it and need it for the registry set. You bet I want an upgrade, it's an extra point in the set. Also If I already have it and I think it might upgrade, remember PCGS coins will sell more than ANACS coins. I'll send it in to get it into a PCGS holder. The new holder will pay for itself when the coin sells, if it gets an upgrade all the better, if it goes down a point. Well, that's the price you pay for playing the crackout game. You have to take the good with the bad.

If I had a Morgan in a MS65 that was let's say $2000, a MS64 was $400, but a MS66 was $5000. Would I crack it and Re-Submit it.... NO WAY!!!

smprfi

Of course it is about the money.Who told you otherwise?

SouthernBelle

Perhaps, for some dealers and collectors, it's a combination of several of the reasons mentioned here. I would suggest:

Money (greed)
Ego (another form of greed)
Stupidity (a lesser form of greed)
The rather large number of frontal lobotomies performed several decades ago (not in any way related to greed)

Again, I'm only suggesting that these are the motivations for some folks, not everybody. My main reason for collecting is rather simple minded, I just enjoy looking at those pretty little pieces of history and art.

Dog97

So it will fit in my blue PCGS box.

zep

Braddick,
Don't worry. There are still plenty of us who have a long holding period in mind for our coins. I've made plans to leave the collection to my children. They don't appreciate them now but they will when they grow up. In the meantime I get a lot of enjoyment as a caretaker, so to speak.

I agree that some aspects of the coin business have really sped up. And where this trend will go is hard to figure but I don't think it will interfere with my long term plans.

g097103

I'm not much of a slab buyer, but I put no value whatsoever in what the slab says. It is somebodies opinion on a particular
day at a particular time. On a different day and time or when the political motivations change so does the grade. On the
occasions I do buy slabs I sort of glance at the grade and look at the coin.

nwcs

The only times I've crossed anything is to get it into a registry qualified holder. But now I'm saying (mostly) to heck with that. I've seen enough now to come out of the spell of the holders. I'll still buy holdered coins, but I think that I'll only submit a couple now and then. Otherwise it's to whitman folders (with the acetate sleeves). Compact, fits on the shelf easily, and still attractive enough.

MadMarty

<< <i>So it will fit in my blue PCGS box. >>



Let's not forget the green PCGS boxes!!!, Also PCGS coins fit fine in NGC boxes. But NGC coins will not fit in a PCGS box.

ANACONDA

Good question.

People cross coins for a number of reasons.

1. ego gratification. Crossing a coin into "a more respectable holder" means you did something that someone else hadn't apparently done
(although you wouldn't know that the coin may have been already been in a 64 pcgs holder, upgraded to ngc 65 holder and now will be
sent in for cross to pcgs 65.....three hundred dollars later.)

2. anal retentiveness, which actually is a trait that most set building collectors have...having a collection with a number of different holders
just makes AR people uneasy. These are also people whose underwear matches their sox. Just because.....

3.. to make money.....people with a need for coins that match their collction (#2) will buy a coin from a dealer if it is the holder they want
and they won't buy it if it is in the "wrong" holder.

There might be other reasons but i'm only into my second cup of coffee

"I guess the days of building a worthwhile collection and then holding it for twenty years or so before placing it at auction are over. Now it
appears the rage is"'instant gratification". "I want my 100% profit, and I want it NOW" via the Crack-Out: Upgrade Format is alive and well."

Collection building is indeed alive and well and it is my opinion that more collections will be formed and held on to from now one, assuming
we are not soon facing the end of the world as we know it.

The registry sets are the key. People love to have recognition (and it is good) and it is this recognition that will make people hang on to
their sets and compete vigorously. Haven't you seen Cardinal's license plate?....GOT BUSTS...???

adrian

MadMonk

As far as Franklins, For a long time My eyes said PCGS coins had a higher percentage of solid for the grade, nice looking coins in thier holders. It has always been very difficult for me to liquidate NGC Franklins.
When PCGS went to the blue label holders, I noticed a lot of questionable 65 and 66 pieces. Then it seemed like they were all over the place. It's nuts. Thank goodness my experience guided my buying. There has got to be some good crackout/crossover coins left, tucked away. I would think that initially PCGS would cross more coins because collectors sent thier nicest coins to be crossed. PCGS is also looser on FBL, so that was another motivating factor. All my actions have been to realize the highest value for my primo coins. It's all been about money.

CLASSICS

thats why people crack out ,and try to cross.... many coins are for peoples regeistery sets, or for resale at a higher price.............ask yourself, what will your coins be worth if pcgs changes owner ship.....or mr. hall deceides to sell out, and retire from the business? will the perception of the higher value still be there? how many times have we heard, buy the coin not the holder. unless you want to resale it for a higher price. thats what some are doing, pcgs wont cross so the crack out people get mad.....some coins deserve the higher grade and pcgs wont give it the true grade as some of the bigger dealers here have stated, because now they are tighter in thier standards.....and want to be known as #1. ......they can grade whatever they want.....but i can buy from who ever i want, and any grading service i choose. i refuse to be a slave to any of them..........i buy a coin because i like it, and i know how to grade my coins, have been doing it long before any grading service came along, and will be doing it long after.......... as they use to say...buy the book before the coin, and buy the coin, not the holder with a number on it.........it was good advise back then, and it is still good advise today. enjoy what you have, and for those who want to play the numbers game, i here las vegas is nice this time of year.........

Lakesammman

The registry is fun. I tried a few crossovers for registry purposes. None made it, so I've quit. I don't really care if my registry sets look incomplete...it will just have to stay that way.

Monstavet

And what is wrong with turning a profit? I realize all you socialist-let's-go-dig-a-ditch-together-because-it-is-fun types have high aspirations for "coin-collecting" as an entity unto itself, but what is wrong with turning a profit? If someone will pay 5 times more for the same coin in a different little plastic holder, than why wouldn't you try and upgrade?
"Fools and their money are soon parted" PT Barnum
"There's nothing wrong with capitalism, there's nothing wrong with free enterprise..." Oingo Boingo

A lot of flak is being given to the dealers who realize that money can be made in this way...perhaps the criticism should be directed at all of the people who continue to buy the coins this way...and many are people on this forum.

If I find a coin that I don't normally collect, but can turn a profit on and use the proceeds to buy something else I like, don't criticize me for using the tools at my disposal.

dakra

Monstavet,
You see a coin slabbed MS64 (for $400) but you think it will go an MS65 ($2000), do you offer MS65 money? I think your going to pay $400 for the coin.

Let's say you send it in a few times and finally get your MS65.... now the coin is worth $2000. You place it up for sale at $2,000 and I come along and I like the coin. I don't agree that it's an MS65, I think it's an MS64. I tell you to have it regraded and if it comes back an MS65 I will pay your $2,000 asking price.

Are you going to stand behind that grade??

-Dave

Baley

As long as the services continue to attempt to boil the grade down to one integer, the profit motive will continue to be the primary driver of the crackout game. yes, there are the qualifiers like FH, FSB, FBL, CAM and DCAM, ect, and those are steps in the right direction, but in some ways, they only add fuel to the fire, as more coins are sent in more than once to try to attain the next level, or to get the designation. the desire to buy something and sell it for more is very compelling for some people, and if they are good at it, with a good eye, savvy buying, and luck in getting upgrades, they will profit. of course there a lot of reasons to try to cross a coin to PCGS, but the main one has to be money.

as Adrian mentioned in a different thread, it's called ARBITRAGE, but it's difficult, and many more people lose money (in the form of grading fees, postage, non- upgrades and downright downgrades) trying it than those who can consistently do in profitably. Of course, a successful upgrade can pay for itself hansomely, so of course in some cases it is definitely worth it. (heh, I say this as someone who has bought and still owns coins in PCGS, NGC, ANACS, ICG, PCI, and yes, even an ACG slab, has broken out maybe 20 coins that now reside in my dansco type set album, and have never sent a coin to PCGS) so the fact is, the crackout game goes on does not affect someone like me.

the grading services of course love it, the successful crackout artists love it, the unsuccessful ones bich and moan, and lots of interested observers maybe spend a lot of time thinking about it, but for a rational collector who TRULY buys the coin and not the plastic, it just doesn't matter.

Lakesammman

There's nothing wrong with capitalism, there's nothing wrong with free enterprise..." Oingo Boingo

Is that a real name??

ANACONDA

Long live capitalism!! It is what has made our nation the greatest nation on earth!

I think braddick's post was a post made to make us think. I don't think he criticizing capitalism.

His criticism, if any, may be the emphasis placed on the quick buck vs. the long buck....it's the horizon of the buyer...he may think a shorter horizon is the current albeit not better horizon.

RegistryCoin

But, "more is better sooner" right???

Last week, it was ncg, overgrading.
We learned that we can't quickly and easily "flip $100k of junk."
This week, it's pcgs, undergrading,
We learn that making quick profits on switching holders/flipping plastic is becoming near-impossible.

Expectations are just too high. The crack-outs have been way too (immediately) profitable for dealers.
Really, is every "nice for the grade" coin going to upgrade/cross?
Before the advent of slabbing, most coins sold were a grade or two too high.
Slabbing, expecially pcgs and ngc's, have taken away a bit of that over-grading.
Is the only way to satisfy dealers now, to have the slabbers overgrade everything by a point or two?

Grading standards do change.
There has been little consistancy, on which, one can base consistant expectations.

Grading is not a science, we are told. We are seeing that it is an opinion, but it is also a marketing tool.
Marketing of grading companies is probably the most important ingredient to their success.
Grading is a part of a grading company's marketing.
A grading standard is just a reflection of the current marketing of a grading company.
Acg is marketing their standard.
Icg is marketing their standard.
Ngc is marketing their standard.
Pcgs is marketing their standard.
All these marketing approaches, with the possible exception of acg, change in time.
Grading standards will reflect these marketing changes.

Adjust expectations, or, better yet, have few.
Perhaps without expectations of great(est) and fast(est) returns, one can enjoy the hobby and the biz a bit more.

CLASSICS

<< <i>And what is wrong with turning a profit? I realize all you socialist-let's-go-dig-a-ditch-together-because-it-is-fun types have high aspirations for "coin-collecting" as an entity unto itself, but what is wrong with turning a profit? If someone will pay 5 times more for the same coin in a different little plastic holder, than why wouldn't you try and upgrade?
"Fools and their money are soon parted" PT Barnum
"There's nothing wrong with capitalism, there's nothing wrong with free enterprise..." Oingo Boingo

A lot of flak is being given to the dealers who realize that money can be made in this way...perhaps the criticism should be directed at all of the people who continue to buy the coins this way...and many are people on this forum.

If I find a coin that I don't normally collect, but can turn a profit on and use the proceeds to buy something else I like, don't criticize me for using the tools at my disposal. >>

.........................socialist? no....... a ditch digger...yes... in vietnam.....and proud to be one when i served........fun type, yep thats me since iam one of the lucky ones that came home alive ...........how long did you serve? .....an entity unto itself, no one is.............making a profit.....nothing wrong with that, i do it every day.......capitalism its great.............flack being given to dealers who realize money can be made this way?........doesnt sound like a dealer to me, sounds more like a p.t barnum at a circus side show, banging his cane on the table yelling...step right up suckers..i mean folks........was a ms64@ 400.00 now its a ms65.....next month it might be a ms63. of course next week it might be a ms66....yep step right up folks, now you see it now you dont.........its a shell game, like you see on the streets of new york.........step right up folks.....whos next? .............

Monstavet

Oingo Boingo...yes a real name, but the quote should actually be attributed to Danny Elfman who wrote the song.

I am probably the biggest communist on these boards so I am not picking on anyone's political idealogy. I, like Braddick, am just trying to say "think about it, man!" Some people collect for the short-term, some for the long-term, others don't know what to collect (like me) or have any money to collect anything (like me again). As I said above, if someone is going to pay 5 times as much for the same coin in a different piece of plastic, then there will always be someone there to gladly take their money. If that is the coin you want, and you have to have it, then you are gonna pay that money, or wait for another day when the coin is available for less, or settle for a different coin - and it might be a better coin, in somebody else's piece of plastic. There are enough "collector's" out there who will pay lots more than me or you for a coin, and that is just the way it is, so don't hate the guy who holds out for the next sucker, I mean, collector to come along and pay that higher price.

As for the question about $400 MS64, $2000 MS65 and what would I sell it for....I guess if I thought it was an MS65 in the first place and scored it for $400, it would be my perogative to sell it for the grade I think it is...grading is just an opinion - everyone here agrees on that. If you don't agree with my grade, then you are wrong - hahaha just kidding! If you don't agree with a grade I give a coin, and we are nowhere close on price...we won't make a deal. If I hold onto the coin, and 100 people look at it, and I can't sell it for $2000 as MS65, then I might get the idea that it is overgraded and change my opinion...but chances are, there is someone else who will come along and agree with me....better yet...agree with the grading service.

And by the way, I am not even a dealer, so don't lump me in with that lot...I just see a lot of people blaming them for doing what their business is....making money and providing a living for themselves and their family. And yes, that comes at YOUR and MY expense. So be it. If you don't think your favorite dealer is watching his bottom line, and trying to make a buck...I have oceanside property near Las Vegas available. You will live right next door to the dealer whose goal in life is to build the finest collections and not ever make any money doing it.