Ethical Question for Dealers. Please respond.
JJacks
Posts: 759 ✭
If you have some coins in your inventory that you say are "High End", "Very close to next grade", etc. and it is say a PCGS MS65 and you mention that you have resubmitted it to PCGS 3 times trying to get the MS66 out of it (obviously you say this to back up the "High End" hype"), but it has just remained MS65, then should you state if a coin used to be at a lower grade?
Example
PCGS MS67 Morgan $660 - Used to be MS66 - Resubmitted three times, finally made it.
PCGS MS67 Peace $6000 - Used to be MS66 - Resubmitted once.
It seems to me that if you are using attempted resubmissions to "hype" up the quality of a coin and say that it has claims to the next highest grade, that you should give your customers the service of being honest if you resubmit an MS66 and it get the 67 you hoped for, and you should state that. Why not? If the customer likes the coin, why should they care? You do want happy customers, right? I think most dealers will not do this, even if they know it would be the right thing to do, because people may not want to pay $6000 for the Peace $ that used to be worth about $500.
For anyone who thinks I always think PCGS is right by the way, I stated earlier that I think it is noble of PCGS to fix their problems, but that doesn't mean they should give away whatever grades are desired. I would also state that if upgrades have gotten very tough at PCGS, that could be considered a sign of consistancy.
Lets see which dealers would be willing to back up their ideas of high ethical standards by being willing to describe resubmissions on coins.
JJacks
Example
PCGS MS67 Morgan $660 - Used to be MS66 - Resubmitted three times, finally made it.
PCGS MS67 Peace $6000 - Used to be MS66 - Resubmitted once.
It seems to me that if you are using attempted resubmissions to "hype" up the quality of a coin and say that it has claims to the next highest grade, that you should give your customers the service of being honest if you resubmit an MS66 and it get the 67 you hoped for, and you should state that. Why not? If the customer likes the coin, why should they care? You do want happy customers, right? I think most dealers will not do this, even if they know it would be the right thing to do, because people may not want to pay $6000 for the Peace $ that used to be worth about $500.
For anyone who thinks I always think PCGS is right by the way, I stated earlier that I think it is noble of PCGS to fix their problems, but that doesn't mean they should give away whatever grades are desired. I would also state that if upgrades have gotten very tough at PCGS, that could be considered a sign of consistancy.
Lets see which dealers would be willing to back up their ideas of high ethical standards by being willing to describe resubmissions on coins.
JJacks
Always buying music cards of artists I like! PSA or raw! Esp want PSA 10s 1991 Musicards Marx, Elton, Bryan Adams, etc. And 92/93 Country Gold AJ, Clint Black, Tim McGraw PSA 10s
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Comments
Let me add 1 more thing.
Let's say I call and ask about an MS67 Peace $ in a PCGS holder, but I say that I don't want it if it has ever been PCGS MS66 and was upgraded later. Would you tell me the truth if you had it upgraded by PCGS at some point?
BTW, I'm not saying I would do this, just want to know the answer.
JJacks
This is why I think terms like PQ and High-end are useless. They have been tossed around so much that they are now meaningless.
Just my two-cents (U.S.)
Cheers,
Bob
W.C. Fields
<< <i>Laura,
If it is really buy the coin and not the holder, why do dealers continue to try and get upgrades? The coins should speak for themselves.
Tony >>
The holder is what determines value. A person who pays too much for the holder because they like the coin may eat the difference when they go to sell. Most people buy the coin AND the holder. Many claim they do not, but they are only kidding themselves.
You have to submit them 10 times to get the correct grade. The services save images of the coins, keep track of how many times each has been submitted, and will only give the correct grade after it has been sent in 10 times.
(Please notice the winkie that has been inserted above.)
The "resubmit many times before it gets into the right holder" theme suports my contention that even though grading by 5 numismatists
or more and averaging the grades to get the real grade is going to be more expensive, it is way less than having to submit many times
to get the right grade.
Because most coin people (as well as most people, i might add) have a suffering self-esteem.
Think i'm kidding?
How many times have you read:
"I only collect PCGS coins"? or run across a guy who only buys ugly to average coins because he can get them "at sheet"?
When i see those kinds of behaviors, i think 'there's a guy who is a conformist because he can't think for himself.'
Translated "I don't know how to grade coins, so i buy what is most accepted."
JUST MY OPINION.
adrian
JJ,
Would it matter to you that I've seen Laura bid on raw coins? Yes, RAW. The 1873-CC TD (NGC MS65) and the 1874-CC TD (PCGS MS??) were both bought raw. I think their 1875-S Proof 20c piece was bought either raw or in a different holder than it is currently in now.
Laura knows how to grade, and she would not overpay for a coin simply because of the holder. Of course, she would pay less if she could... Who wouldn't?
I don't know if this is addressing your point, but I just thought this may be relevent...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
...Because images are just a part of the picture. The technical grade gives additional information - it's a shorthand way of saying it is of a certain quality.
When you get the coin, you get the rest of the information.
The saying is said to redirect one's attention away in part from what the attention is often innappropriately focused on.
<< <i>And if a coin DOES get upgraded anyway, then wasn't it undergraded to begin with? >>
Not nescessarily. It may have been correctly graded before and is now OVERGRADED. In which case it will never be submitted again other than for reholdering because of the down grade potential.
The coin is slabbed a MS66 something or the other along with "this coin will eventually be in a 67 holder."
Now, for the life or me, I can't say that would make me feel about this coin in a 67 holder.
If I truly felt this coin was worthy of the grade of MS67, then I would advertise it as "an MS67 coin that I cannot understand why it is slabbed 66, since it has XX characteristics of MS67."
The ad as written says to me that it may be the best 66 the seller has seen OR maybe not even that, but rather, the market will accept this coin as a 67 even though it is technically a 66. Does that mean 10 years from now (arbitrary) the same coin may even become a 68.
Yes, I understand that it is marketing, trying to get the best money for the coin, but why is it so difficult to "buck" that which you feel is not right? This is a market-making dealer, yet, he/she is unwilling to challenge the slab. I just don't understand this mentality IF IT IS GENUINE.
Excuse me, but, you guys can have the coins that "morph." I'll take the one's that remain the same. (obvious sarcasm)
<< <i><< And if a coin DOES get upgraded anyway, then wasn't it undergraded to begin with? >> >>
Condor is absolutely correct. A coin certainly will be overgraded in many (soon to be most?) instances of upgrading.
It seems that some coin people are not happy until the coin is maxed-out, a coffin-coin, a "happy", retired, never-to-see-another-grading-room, coin.
The original Peter Principle states that...people tend to be promoted up to their "level of incompetence".
Beware and be aware of the Peter Principle pertaining to coins:
Coins tend to be upgraded up to a level one grade beyond their true grade.