Russ, I have not rolled back an odometer since being released from prison. As far as not interrupting the coin doctor posse, if they start doing it, I won't interrupt them.
<< <i>Mark, I do trust a few select coin dealers. Again, mainly I trust the ones who do not play the slabbing game. If I walk by and see a table with nice, bust and seated coins that are raw, I stop to take a look. For one thing, I know that my buying competition is smaller, since most of the sheep-like public cannot grade coins for themselves and are afraid of REAL coin dealers who are not afraid to deal in raw, high grade coins. I call it integrity. >>
That doesn't imply that dealers/collectors who find merit in slabbed coins lack integrity. Just wanted to mention that.
Also, keep in mind that there are a whole lot of people new to collecting who would not be in the market at all if it weren't for slabs. Authenticity is a key concern for newbies who might want to commit serious money to coins. Many people want to enjoy the hobby now, and not slog through ten years of getting burned on fake/altered/cleaned coins until they are at your level of expertise. Nothing wrong with your approach, but it's good to see the value in the other side also.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
Kranky, good point. I buy slabs, too. It just depends on whether or not I like the coin. I just get sick when I hear about dealers who are upset because they spent $3000 trying to get 120 slabs upgraded for the sole purpose of screwing one of the newbies that you mentioned in your post. See my point?
I think that the posse really cannot and will not do anything about coin doctors.
I wonder if NumisEd is simply a pessimist or if he is really a Coin Dr himself and has an agenda against doing anything about malicious coin doctoring...
Many of us know how to do some form of coin dr'ing. The vast majority of us are honest about it. I know that you're against *malicious* doctoring as much as the next person... (I would never call your integrity into question.)
EvillageBabbler, I am not a pessimist as much as I am a realist.
Since you are such an optimist, please explain what the posse is gonna do about the coin doctors? Tar and feather 'em? It's just a scam, and you are one of the victims.
Also, since you freely admit to having some coin doctoring skills, then why would anyone want to purchase one of your coins that you advertise in your signature line? BTW, your 1800 half dime is WAY overpriced. Why? Because it's in a PCGS slab?
I'm sorry if I offended you -- well, not *that* sorry.
I don't know how the "posse" will operate, and I am taking a wait-n-see approach. I don't criticize it nor do I yet applaud it. I just sit here and wait.
As far as having doctoring skills, I believe I wrote something to the effect that many of us have some doctoring skills. As far as what I do to my coins, they are limited to dipping (whether in dip or acetone) or leaving a coin for a few years on the window sill to re-tone naturally.
As for wanting to buy my coins, well, that's up to each individual. I will say that I have never done anything to any coin that I'm trying to sell. And, I offer a return policy. As for my 1800 half dime, it may be that it's overpriced to you. But, try finding one of that quality at any price.
Well, for once, I can finally pat myself on the back or breathe a sigh of relief for not jumping on the "MONSTER TONED COIN" bandwagon. All the people that are spending big bucks on these coins are really the only ones taking the risks here. I actually really never saw too many BEAUTIFUL toned coins out there anyway!
I guess I'll stay in my own back yard and keep playing with my "modern" proof and mint sets, proof and BU SAE's, and other so called low rated raw coin purchases!
Also, just another reason to mis-trust unscrupulous dealers......'ya just gotta be careful!!
"LIVE FOR TODAY, BECAUSE THERE MAY BE NO TOMORROW!"- DEANE
<< <i>This is why I collect only GSA's. Un dipped, uncleaned, & un doctored!
I was burned with raw ones when I first started collecting & sent them off for grading. 7 out of 8 body bagged.
Natural un touched CC Morgans for me >>
How hard is it to open a GSA holder without detection?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Singapore & Hong Kong March/April Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838 MACAU emgworldwide@gmail.com Cell: 512.808.3197 EMERGING MARKET GROUP PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
We collectors are the hobby, not the coins. The coins merely reflect our individual interests. Coin collecting at and below XF condition is still fun and reasonably safe. For collectors who collect above XF condition, in my opinion, are investors rather than collectors. Investors spend as much time worrying as enjoying their hobby. Keep on collecting and enjoying the hobby, for without the enjoyment, what's the point. Again, JMO. Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Can't find much on lasered US coins but did find something on cleaning Roman coins using a laser.
"The cleaning effects of three lasers operating at different wavelengths, namely a TEA CO2 laser emitting at 10.6 mgrm, an Er:YAG laser at 2.94 mgrm, and a 2ohgr-Nd:YAG laser at 532 nm have been compared on corroded Romans coins and various atomic and nuclear techniques have also been applied to evaluate the efficiency of the applied procedure."
<< <i>We collectors are the hobby, not the coins. The coins merely reflect our individual interests. Coin collecting at and below XF condition is still fun and reasonably safe. For collectors who collect above XF condition, in my opinion, are investors rather than collectors. Investors spend as much time worrying as enjoying their hobby. Keep on collecting and enjoying the hobby, for without the enjoyment, what's the point. Again, JMO. Jim >>
Jim, I think that your gross generalization above is extremely unfair to many collectors.
A collector of coins graded above XF can be just as passionate about, collector-oriented and as unconcerned with the financial implications, as one who collects XF and below. Not to mention, that a great many coins graded XF and lower are far more valuable than other coins which might be graded higher.
I have seen collectors of $50 coins worry about (rather than enjoy) their coins far more than some owners of five figure coins. It is not about the grade of the coins, and in many cases it's not even about the value of the coins. It's more about the mind set of the collector and the cost/value of his coins relative to his overall financial position.
Having joined the boards in 2005, I recall seeing this thread from the LURKER's perch prior. Not knowing much or many ( I still don't know many of you but feel like I do), the fear factor or the intimidation rather, kept me at bay until I got enough to nerve to actually post and start sharing. I wonder how many lurkers out there reading (those who want to post but are afraid) might start now because of this thread. This place is like sitting in school and learning without having to actually participate, thanks to you gsaguys.
And as a veteran I want to say: it was a pleasure & honor to serve, as I remember the fallen this day. And for those who just can't stand the fraud and seedy side of this business, ... collect what you want and keep it in your budget. When stepping out on a limb because we THINK we know, that's when we get burned the worst.
Comments
<< <i>Mark, I do trust a few select coin dealers. Again, mainly I trust the ones who do not play the slabbing game. If I walk by and see a table with nice, bust and seated coins that are raw, I stop to take a look. For one thing, I know that my buying competition is smaller, since most of the sheep-like public cannot grade coins for themselves and are afraid of REAL coin dealers who are not afraid to deal in raw, high grade coins. I call it integrity. >>
That doesn't imply that dealers/collectors who find merit in slabbed coins lack integrity. Just wanted to mention that.
Also, keep in mind that there are a whole lot of people new to collecting who would not be in the market at all if it weren't for slabs. Authenticity is a key concern for newbies who might want to commit serious money to coins. Many people want to enjoy the hobby now, and not slog through ten years of getting burned on fake/altered/cleaned coins until they are at your level of expertise. Nothing wrong with your approach, but it's good to see the value in the other side also.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
I wonder if NumisEd is simply a pessimist or if he is really a Coin Dr himself and has an agenda against doing anything about malicious coin doctoring...
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
legend, do you really think the coin dr's are quaking in their boots? just curious.
K S
Many of us know how to do some form of coin dr'ing. The vast majority of us are honest about it. I know that you're against *malicious* doctoring as much as the next person... (I would never call your integrity into question.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Since you are such an optimist, please explain what the posse is gonna do about the coin doctors? Tar and feather 'em? It's just a scam, and you are one of the victims.
Also, since you freely admit to having some coin doctoring skills, then why would anyone want to purchase one of your coins that you advertise in your signature line? BTW, your 1800 half dime is WAY overpriced. Why? Because it's in a PCGS slab?
I'm sorry if I offended you -- well, not *that* sorry.
I don't know how the "posse" will operate, and I am taking a wait-n-see approach. I don't criticize it nor do I yet applaud it. I just sit here and wait.
As far as having doctoring skills, I believe I wrote something to the effect that many of us have some doctoring skills. As far as what I do to my coins, they are limited to dipping (whether in dip or acetone) or leaving a coin for a few years on the window sill to re-tone naturally.
As for wanting to buy my coins, well, that's up to each individual. I will say that I have never done anything to any coin that I'm trying to sell. And, I offer a return policy. As for my 1800 half dime, it may be that it's overpriced to you. But, try finding one of that quality at any price.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Kranky, you are correct!
I guess I'll stay in my own back yard and keep playing with my "modern" proof and mint sets, proof and BU SAE's, and other so called low rated raw coin purchases!
Also, just another reason to mis-trust unscrupulous dealers......'ya just gotta be careful!!
<< <i>Could'nt the government get involved with shuting these people down? I thought it was illegal to deface money?
................. the goverment is involed...they made susan b. anthony didnt they?
I was burned with raw ones when I first started collecting & sent them off for grading. 7 out of 8 body bagged.
Natural un touched CC Morgans for me
<< <i>This is why I collect only GSA's. Un dipped, uncleaned, & un doctored!
I was burned with raw ones when I first started collecting & sent them off for grading. 7 out of 8 body bagged.
Natural un touched CC Morgans for me
How hard is it to open a GSA holder without detection?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>now that dealers have been reported, why dont you oust billy to the public. save people from getting ripped >>
Because he could set himself up for a lawsuit.
Gary
Hong kong/Long Beach JUNE Table #838
MACAU
emgworldwide@gmail.com
Cell: 512.808.3197
EMERGING MARKET GROUP
PCGS, NGC, CCE & NCS, CGC, PSA, Auth. Dealer
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
"The cleaning effects of three lasers operating at different wavelengths, namely a TEA CO2 laser emitting at 10.6 mgrm, an Er:YAG laser at 2.94 mgrm, and a 2ohgr-Nd:YAG laser at 532 nm have been compared on corroded Romans coins and various atomic and nuclear techniques have also been applied to evaluate the efficiency of the applied procedure."
http://www.springerlink.com/content/qtmb6b23mwjdue2q/
<< <i>We collectors are the hobby, not the coins. The coins merely reflect our individual interests. Coin collecting at and below XF condition is still fun and reasonably safe. For collectors who collect above XF condition, in my opinion, are investors rather than collectors. Investors spend as much time worrying as enjoying their hobby. Keep on collecting and enjoying the hobby, for without the enjoyment, what's the point. Again, JMO.
Jim >>
Jim, I think that your gross generalization above is extremely unfair to many collectors.
A collector of coins graded above XF can be just as passionate about, collector-oriented and as unconcerned with the financial implications, as one who collects XF and below. Not to mention, that a great many coins graded XF and lower are far more valuable than other coins which might be graded higher.
I have seen collectors of $50 coins worry about (rather than enjoy) their coins far more than some owners of five figure coins. It is not about the grade of the coins, and in many cases it's not even about the value of the coins. It's more about the mind set of the collector and the cost/value of his coins relative to his overall financial position.
Interesting that not much has changed . . .
Drunner
I wonder how many lurkers out there reading (those who want to post but are afraid) might start now because of this thread. This place is like sitting in school and learning without having to actually participate, thanks to you gsaguys.
And as a veteran I want to say: it was a pleasure & honor to serve, as I remember the fallen this day.
And for those who just can't stand the fraud and seedy side of this business, ... collect what you want and keep it in your budget. When stepping out on a limb because we THINK we know, that's when we get burned the worst.
The big one is just starting and I like it.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5