On second thought...

dwood

Never mind

eminem

If his tests don't yield good results he can always grab a baked potato and cook up a batch of monsters!!

dwood

.

Askari

Uh ... er ... he isn't really going to publish his research ... is he?

PhillyJoe

Sounds like this guy would be a good one to discuss those shrinking coins. I'm still not sure I know how that is done.

Joe

dwood

.

DHeath

Wow, he might actually be able to go underground and earn big money. Have you created a monster.

dwood

.

ANACONDA

Wow! How intriguing. Great project. Please do see it through....

I will be impressed if he can duplicate some monsters. I do think it is only a matter of time before toning can be applied in
exceptionally convincing ways.

I will be REALLY impressed if he can put textile pattern on the coins in the same configuaration that appears on canvas bag stored
Morgans.

I'm not too concerned (yet) about distinguishing the authentic from the not authentic. While I believe that it may take scientists a
while to be able to detect AT, it is my opinion that science will also provide a way to distinguish the authentic from the applied.

If i'm wrong, imagine how expensive monster toned morgans will become that are in GSA slabs.....which would make GSAguy happier
than he already is.....

adrian

sinin1

More power to him, I wish him all the luck in the world.

Some PhD's live in glass houses and their theories can never be applied, will be interesting to see what he produces (and how long it takes until you show us something that he produced)

eagle7

Ugly is Ugly and Beauty is Beauty to the eye of the beholder! Beautiful lab created emeralds and rubies bring almost as much money as real ones and for good reason, they not only look the part, but it costs lots of money to make them that way. Certain types of toned Morgans which people pay large sums of money for I simply look at in disgust. Its just my taste. I like the pastel rainbows, others may like something else. All im saying is if a scientest can make the beautiful pastel rainbow which I like, I bet it would cost as much as the real thing by the time all the pickpockets in line prior to myself got through with it. I say puke to the whole thing and I am sticking to PCGS and NGC coins which look like I want them to look and the others can pay what they want for whatever it looks like that they want.

Barry

<< <i>Sounds like this guy would be a good one to discuss those shrinking coins. I'm still not sure I know how that is done.

Joe >>


Think of it as being squeezed from the sides in, in this case squeezed by a magnetic field. The coin's weight doesn't change, as it gets thicker as its diameter shrinks. BTW, if you go to the Trevose or Ft Washington shows, I can show it to you in person.

smprfi

Adrian, couldn't he just lay a canvas piece on the coin when he does the experiment.I would think this would be the easiest pattern to copy.

dwood

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Cam40

Well DWood,If you end up missing,we,ll know why.

dwood

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MacCrimmon

<< <i>Adrian, I've added toning patterns to the list as well. We'll see what he says. >>





<< <i>If i'm wrong, imagine how expensive monster toned morgans will become that are in GSA slabs.....which would make GSAguy happier >>



dwood / Adrian,

OK, let's say the scientist friend very, very, very convincingly duplicates canvas texture toning, such that
you say WOW!, THIS IS ANACONDA!!!, even in a situation where you know it was AT'd.

Now let's say either by the same or similar method, an "unscrupulous type" performs the same toning feat, I'll guarantee you or anyone
else, I or any plastics expert can take that pretty Morgan (let's say I started with an MS-66 1881-S) and
encapsulate it in a 'dead knock-off' GSA holder.

The duplication of that plastic housing is a "leap pipe cinch" compared to the other processes, and the cheapest given there are
no bar codes or holograms to be concerned with. But as they say, "if there's money in it", someone will answer the call and
chuckle all the way to the bank.....YOUR BANK!!

If people keep paying for the TONE MONSTERS in such amounts which defy reality, you only set yourselves up for the "wolves in
sheep's clothing"!!!!!!

Cheers,

MacC.

dwood

.

eagle7

As far as the fabric toning pattern, just throw the coin face down on a paper towel, or a regular towel for that matter, while the coin is still hot from the oven. It will produce a beautiful fabric tone pattern on the toned surface of the coin which will not come off, even with ms70. BTW, DWood, make sure your professor knows about impure metal spots. They will cause spots of untoned area with varying demensions in the area of toning when the coin is heated. Im not talking about the uneven edges of toned area, Im talking about in the middle of toned areas. Even the most tiny impure specks will make large spots, due to molecular action between two different types of metals when heated. Someone told me all this stuff back in 95 when it became a big thing for a while, I dont even know if he is still alive now. I didnt want any of his coins, I dont like that type of toning. I do however see examples of types of his work(not actual coins, just types of toning) in PCGS and NGC slabs occasionally.

dwood

.

Askari

Actually, I think it would be really interesting if someone could find a way to distinguish between the chemical tags of a natural toning product vs. an AT. Theoretically, it would seem physically possible. The real question is could it be made to be inexpensive? Even if not to the point that the average collector could afford one, still, if reasonably affordable by a TPG company, it would really raise the value of slabbed toning wonders. They could then guarantee "natural toning" and that would certainly be worth a fair fee. It might help to sustain the high prices currently being offered for these wonders.

(Are you reading this, David Hall?)

Askari

<< <i>That's why he felt electrical fields were the way to go. He can target an electrical field much like a razor, and the effect is reserved relatively close to that field, whereas heat would dissipate and spread in a much more random and uncontrolable fashion. >>

Actually, a couple years ago Bob Campbell told me that some of the most accomplished doctors were using an electrical process.

Russ

Does anybody here actually think this would be the first time a trained chemist got involved in attempting to duplicate original toning? With the enormous premiums being paid for these coins that nobody with the skills and training is already doing it - or at least trying?

Russ, NCNE

dwood

.

ah

Sounds very scientific! what's the reasoning behind this scheme?

dwood

.

Russ

<< <i>Through something similar to ionization, he is confident he can reproduce undetectable AT coins at almost no cost. The equipment involved is also fairly inexpensive, so he believes it could easily be done outside of a Chemist's lab. >>



See my previous post. If that's true, it is already being done.

Russ, NCNE

dwood

.

Russ

Dwood,

I know that greed is a very powerful motivating factor, and I also know that there are many thousands of trained chemists in this country, quite a few of whom have access to University labs. To assume that somebody hasn't already tried this, or may currently be doing it, would be startlingly naive.

Russ, NCNE

dwood

.

DHeath

What is the point of such an experiment? If it is to prove that given enough equipment and effort it is possible to deceive? Antiques can be faked too, paper money can be counterfeited, paintings, relics.....etc. Hey, did they ever decide about the Shroud of Turin? I guess what I'm asking is, if this is supposed to provide enlightenment, are there any in the hobby who really doubt it is possible?


Edited to add - it could easily be done, but the reward would have to be signifignat in order to justify the expense involved. What are his plans?

MrKelso

In testing or dating a tonned coin ,would the coin be damaged in anyway if a sample of the surface is needed?

dwood

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ClausUrch

I, for one, believe that "The Darkside" has got to DWOOD; proving that even a little exposure to Chlorine gas as a youngster can flashback to cause eccentric problems later in life.

Es ist mine personal opinion das der mixture of den Chlorine Gas und der influence of das Darkside, coupled mit der mind schplitten hynotics of Herr Swimmer hast made our Member, Dwood; ins scientific terms...KOOKOO.

dwood

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sinin1

Some of my more interesting toned coin pieces come from -> get ready for this

































Finger Prints !!!

I do not know for a fact, but sealed (I think) SMS dimes and pennies with just a part of the middle covered, I am guessing came from worker putting the stuff in (let's see what did Joe Blow have for lunch, to leave on his hands, or hand moisturizer, or, etc.). I also have some purple pennies that I am certain started from skin contaminants/oils.

I have to agree with RUSS on this one, DR ELECTRO maybe one of the top 500 in his field (I do not know), and maybe even has a NOBEL, but those 15 starving/broke grad students (that are going to help him over break) have access to the same stuff. There are probably a quite a few of them around the country that have tried something. I can't wait to see his electrophoresis on the side of a Morgan and what beautiful colors he can generate.

Cam40

I,ll guess Dr.Electrode does come up with some very eye-appealing stuff and it looks just like old toning.
Like Russ says,Its already being done successfully by a few.Anyway,when we see these new monsters
it will leave us with the idea that to really test for `original?` toning the slab companies will have to
make use of a carbon-dating system,which probably isnt going to be cost effective.
Would you pay the thousands of dollars it would take to carbon-date the tone on your SAE?
I think some collectors will buy AT coins as long as they have `the look`.
In other words,Eye-appeal rules the day.Even if a coin is known to be ATd.

I,d be for a simple and affordable way to date toning on a coin.For now we have to trust the very experienced
and knowledgeable eyes of the professionals.I think past the point these guys cant spot the ATd then it might as well be call NT.
Maybe a slab company will start up that slabs only natural colored mint state coins,as in blast white or red blazers.

Jamericon

dwood,

As a fellow chemist myself, I look forward to the results of your experiment.

Jamericon

relayer

I hope science will advance the AT industry.

gsaguy

Interesting ideas David and I'm sure many of us in the hobby will be interested to see what kind of results he can generate. However, I also suspect that some pretty good doctors have already thought of the proposed technique themselves or have done just as you did and talked to 'learned' chemists etc to get their opinions. I'll bet HUNDREDS of different methods have been tried.

As for the issue of faking GSA cases, it's something that I've watched for for many years. I've seen a few clumsy attempts at switching coins and saw a pretty good attempt at this very LB show. But even this one was pretty easy for me to spot.

And you're certainly right about the fact that when enough money is involved, someone will make an attempt to deceive others. We've seen that with some of our 'buddies' selling AT'd junk on ebay. But I also suspect that when it comes to monkeying with GSA cases, there could be federal laws that come into play.

AT'ing coins is one thing; breaking federal laws is a bit more stout and takes some big nads. Just ask coin dealer Gary Fernandez who decided he'd make his own PCGS slabs. I do think he's been released from federal prison.

Good post.

GSAGUY

gsaguy

<<Now let's say either by the same or similar method, an "unscrupulous type" performs the same toning feat, I'll guarantee you or anyone
else, I or any plastics expert can take that pretty Morgan (let's say I started with an MS-66 1881-S) and
encapsulate it in a 'dead knock-off' GSA holder.>>

MacCrimmon,

Just to be accurate, any toned NON-CC dollar would not have been placed in a GSA hard plastic holder. They were all put in the GSA softpacks. Therefore a monster toned 1881-S in a GSA hardpack would set off all the alarm bells....at least with this GSA collector.

I know I'm splitting hairs here, but for the sake of accuracy, I had to make the comment.

Your point is still taken!

Thanks

GSAGUY

TomB

Don't worry, I saved a copy of the thread and will email it to anyone who wants to read it.

K6AZ

Hmm.. now why do you suppose dwood deleted every one of his posts to this thread? And changed the title from an artificial toning "experiment" to on second thought.. never mind? Could it be his purchases from easyman on eBay? Or his maniacle defense of aswimmer? Inquiring minds want to know!

gsaguy

David,

Are 'we' now dressed in troll's clothing?

GSAGUY

K6AZ, lol at your sub-title.