Another AT post...Hypothetical question

dwood

I still struggle with the uproar from the tone collectors over what constitutes AT and what doesn't. It seems generally accepted that a coin cooked or painted is trash (I beg to differ, as they still have beauty, but not enhanced value) but one which aquires its tone over a period of years is acceptable. Which got me to thinking:

I've seen several collectors who scour eBay looking for specific holders which have a history of producing noteable toning on the coins housed within. The only explanation for this is the chemical composition of the holder itself, which in my mind, makes them artificial. Yet many of these same people are well respected among this forum as "reputable dealers" of "genuine coins" (I'm not naming names, get over it. That's not the point of this thread). I've also seen discussion on storing coins in envionments conducive to toning.

If a manufacturer sold a flip, or a chest that was laced with sulfur or some other element or compound known to produce toning, is that toning artificial? What if I manufacture a flip that over a period of 3-5 years will cause a silver coin to tone similar to Adrian's latest Morgan post? (It could be done, with varying chemicals laced in specific geometric patterns within the flip or holder). Would that be market acceptable? If not, how long does it need to take before it is considered genuine, or acceptable? Coins stored in specific holders or albums that produce tone are sold as legitimate or genuine. The only explanation for the toning is the chemical makeup of the holder. Why are some accepted, and others aren't?

It seems to be an issue of time more than of process?

Baley

In my opinion HOW the coin got toned is moot.
All that matters is how it LOOKS NOW, and how it PROBABLY got that way, based on its appearance.
from how it LOOKS NOW we can make a fairly educated guess as to where it falls on the
fast/intentional--------------------------------------------------------------slow/accidental spectrum.
and the hypothetical situation you decribe (relatively rapid relatively intentional toning that looks like it is relatively natural and took a relatively longer time) is why I won't pay a huge premium just for color (10x or 20x sheet, vs the Grade of the coin itself white) because THEY CAN FOOL US, and They're Getting BETTER.
Now most collectors will always pay a modest to significant premium for eye appeal, and attractive toning certainly adds to eye appeal. it is also one of the few things in numismatics that can INCREASE. that and the pop reports, esp for high grade moderns (different argument, dont flame me)

Anyway, to answer your hypothetical question:

if such a flip or process was developed, and (remember, this is hypothetical, heh) and IF the results of using it were ABSOLUTELY indistinguishable by the top experts from the "real thing", then the coins thus produced would BECOME for all intents and purposes the SAME and we'd all have all the beautiful rainbow morgans we want for plain ole BU prices, once enough toners are produced and the equilibrium is reached in the market.

by the way, the same is true of lab created gemstones.

Dog97

I'm the guy dwood was talking about. I collect Morgans. I scour eBay looking for toned coins in certian 3rd party holders that toned from the holder itself. And Wyatt Raymond holders. And Whitman & Dansco. And my favorite, the Mint Sack. There's no struggle or uproar in my mind; if it aint mintsack it aint original.

I could take Baley's post, turn it around 180 degrees in the other direction and thats my point of view.
In my opinion HOW the coin got toned is MOST IMPORTANT.
But I like weird looking Morgans, right?

Baley

In my opinion HOW the coin got toned is MOST IMPORTANT.

ok, say you see a coin, one you've never seen before, and it's beautifully toned... how do you decide HOW it got that way?

I maintain you cannot KNOW it's history, you can only look at it as it appears now, and, based on your experience, assign a probability, with a variable degree of certainty, as to what all happened to it.

does it LOOK like it spent a generation in a mint bag? does it LOOK like it was in a Wayte Raymond for a decade or three? Does it LOOK like it was baked from white to rainbow splendor just this morning in someone's toaster oven? you can Never KNOW the history of a coin you see for the first time. But you can make an educated guess.

crito

I know a couple guys here in town that bought Wayte Raymond albums after seeing some coins toned like that. A couple years later and they're still waiting for something to happen. Whatever chemical was used in them has long since dissipated. Maybe someone can talk Lucy into putting a piece of one in a mass spectrometer, can't be just sulphur...

Anyways, time is something that can be measured accurately, unlike intent. Certain toning can't be reproduced in a short period of time. So, while it may not be possible to definitively say a coin is "artificial" or "naturally" toned, you can definitevely say "this toning took years to produce" and "this toning could have been done overnight". Even if you developed a holder like that, I doubt seriously you could reproduce that toning pattern, at least not without investing the same amount of time in the process... and I don't think "coin doctors" wait decades to restock their inventory, would be bad for cash flow

eagle7

All one has to do is to go to Heritage's LB Signature auction and look at the current bids on those toned morgan dollars for auction, then look at the scans and match the toning with the price. Then you will have a good idea what the doctors are trying to do. Look at the highest priced coins in the common grade 64 holders, some of which are already bid at 400 to 500 dollars. That is the toning which is most sought after. When the doctors are able to reach that plateau, all of our toned dollars will soon after revert back to the price of their untoned brothers, or very close to it. Count me on the side of those who are hopeful that they dont succeed any time soon!

dwood

For the record, Dog, you were not the one I was thinking of. Honestly, I can only recall one person by screen name, though the discussions have been enough for me to notice that there are more than one or two that do it. And Wyatt Raymond holders were not the brand I recall either (remember, I'm not a "silver guy" by experience), but they obviously do have a reputation for producing desireable tones.

But your's and Baley's responses seem to reinforce my belief that "At vs Natural" is an opinion only, as any toning is essentially artificial (even bag toning, which occurs because of prolonged exposure to specific chemicals in the fiber of the bage itself). So I'm still wondering "How long is long enough," though I suspect Baley's response is the answer. When it "looks right" it is legitimate. Until then, it isn't.

It is interesting, and I'd be VERY surprised if the exact scenario I proposed doesn't already exist, and perhaps has existed for quite some time (cite Wyatt Raymond as an example). In any event, with the explosion in popularity of toned coins, I suspect it won't be long before someone perfects the process, or develops such a holder, in order to capitalize on the dollars (pun intended). Anyone who thinks the grading companies will always be able to accurately detect accelerated toning, given their current approach, is only fooling themselves. And anyone who thinks the "toners" will not always be one step ahead, again, folly.

I liken it to hacking in the computer industry. The most brilliant minds in the computer industry are not in the computer industry. I strongly suspect the same is true in the toned coin market.

dorkkarl

dwood, the problem is that those who uproar over a-t don't really stop & think about it. they see a funny color, they blurt out a-t. end-of-thought-process. it's based on a gut-feeling, which is not fair to the rest of us. it's a "moving targer" for discussion.

what is needed before the question can be discussed rationally is a definition of a-t. it may vary from person to person. i'll repeat mine:

natural toning = color acquired when a coin is present in it's intended environment. all other colors are a-t.

what makes my def'n simple is that it limits subjective distraction. according to my def'n, wild'n'crazy colors on a AU SLQ are a-t, because during normal circulation (the business-srtike quarter's intended environment), silver tones to gray, period.

my def'n does not condescend to tell you what is "good" or "bad" toning, just whether it's natural or not. "good" or "bad" is a judgement call, & therefore should be driven by the market.

rainbow-stripes on mercury dimes, purple franklins, wayte-raymond toning on bust halves, cresecents of colors on bu morgans - all are artificial in my book.

but i still might like it.

the issue that should be argued is not whether a coin is a-t or not, it should be whether the toning is market acceptable, or not.

K S

nwcs

Another thing to remember is that when you try to duplicate the environment of natural toning that happened over years, it'll still take years! Not to mention that the nature of the game is random. You may get the same results, you may get a horribly ugly coin, or a really beautiful one. When a coin was toned naturally, it's results are unpredictable. So intentionally setting up an environment to duplicate a natural process (but still letting it be natural and not chemically applied) is OK with me. I wouldn't call it original, but I would call it natural. But if I set up an environment to accelerate natural toning, I would call it AT. There is a difference between intentionally recreating favorable conditions and accelerating the process.

Perhaps AT should be redefined (for me) as Accelerated Toning. I think that term would encompass most of what people on this board have called AT.

cladking

To a large extent many of the experts in the hobby have come to recognize the
specific type of toning which appears with the different types of holders and storage
methods. This sort of toning will be seen as a badge of authenticity when it is typ-
ical. Due to individual variations in storage enviroments and starting conditions there
will be great variation even among the coins stored in the usual containers and holders.
Add in the less usual holders, and the myriad methods that collectors have used to in-
duce the color gods to transform their coins and it becomes impossibly too complex to
consistently separate natural from artificial toning or to even come up with a workable
definition of the terms that two people will agree to.

dwood

I think nwcs is onto something. In my book, there is no natural toning (I agree with karl's statement in that regard). Coins show color because of exposure to something not normally found in their intended environament (in circulation).

So maybe nwcs is right. It's ACCELERATED toning, and not artificial at all? Good thought nwcs, which sheds an entirely different light on the subject.

Still, it begs my initial question..."How long is long enough?" (I need to tell my chemists something definite

Edited because I cannot type

Baley

dorrkarl writes,
the issue that should be argued is not whether a coin is a-t or not, it should be whether the toning is market acceptable, or not.


which sentiment i agree with, if altered from the ABSOLUTE of "is this coin market acceptable" or "not"?

to

"To what degree, to the experienced eye, is this toning attractive and natural LOOKING?"

you see, it changes the question from a binary yes/no decision to a scale that must be evaluated on an individual basis for each coin, or at the least for coins of a certain "appearance".

and it also specifies that the ones doing the deciding, whether buyer, seller, or "neutral" third party grader, know what the hay they're looking at and thinking about and talking about and writing on the slab about and therefore trying to place a value on in the marketplace.

edited for grammer. upon reread, made little sense the first time

dwood

Part of my struggle is that I actually collect known "AT" coins. Even if they're "artificial" they're still beautiful, to me at least. It doesn't matter how the coin got that way, it's still beautiful. I have about 200 or so, some of which may actually be real, but some of my slabs are AT also, so who knows? I try to envision a day 200 years from now, when someone is looking over my collection. Will they be able to tell the coins were first toned artificially? Will it matter? Will tone be undesireable then, and an indication of an inferior coin?

I think they'll look at them similarly to me. They're beautiful. They're in good shape. They're worth preserving. Who knows?

cladking

<< <i> I try to envision a day 200 years from now, when someone is looking over my collection. Will they be able to tell the coins were first toned artificially? Will it matter? Will tone be undesireable then, and an indication of an inferior coin?

I think they'll look at them similarly to me. They're beautiful. They're in good shape. They're worth preserving. Who knows? >>



I wouldn't rule out the possibility that what we now call AT will come to be seen
as a badge of authenticity also. Some individuals' work will come to more highly
valued than others.

Nysoto

"Intended environment" includes considerable storage during a coin's tour of commerce, whether it be a cash register, pocket, purse, dresser drawer, bank vault, etc. All can impart different forms of toning - look at the various colors on your lincoln cents from your pocket change. I have some bust halves "stored" in my wife's hutch because her sterling holloware takes on rainbow colors after a couple of years, until she polishes them (no, she will not accidently polish my coins!). Whether this is AT or not I don't really care, I like the way the coins look, and I don't plan on slabbing them.

dorkkarl

nysoto, agreed. however, i have never, ever found a rainbow-colored or "monster-toned" coin in circulation. not even once in 40 years.

K S

Baley

..."How long is long enough?"

there's no line. no one will tell you, "it takes 5 years" or "50 years" and before that, it's "not" and after that it "is"

i would say, generally, the longer a coin is left alone the better. the more that's "done" to it, the worse.

Ideally, a coin came off the dies, was sealed into an inert plastic capsule, and stayed there, in a moderately dry room temperature vault, for ever. (in fact, pretty much like a modern proof coin)

on the other end of the spectrum, a coin gets worn down flat, or someone "does" something to it. the more "action" a coin has seen, the worse.

so, and I'll talk about 100+ year old silver coins here, and this might be a hypothetical heirarchy of desirability, and some members might argue as to which specific one might move up or down a peg, but i doubt anyone will say a coin way at the bottom is "better" than one at the top. say it's an 1844 seated liberty half dollar, just to form a picture in your head.

1) collector gets brand new coin directly from mint in 1844. holds by edges, puts into inert container, leaves in very safe bank deposit box for 159 years. takes it out, hands it to you.

2) different collector puts 1844 half dollar in his in a coin book, envelope, some other protected but slightly more "exposed" environment, say on shelf in closet at home. album or envelope gets moved and coin gets looked at once in a while, but not touched, say every decade, until now, and then you get it.

3) different collector carefully admires coin about once a week for each of the 159 years, only holds it by edges, and when it gets dusty, he rinses it off in clean water and pats dry with a soft cloth. rest of time coin is in a safe, still container. then you get it. still a pretty nice coin!

4) different collector keeps his coin in a coin cabinet with a velvet tray, and it moves about just a little bit some almost every day. he's a conoisseur though, and never touches the surfaces.

5) collector stores his coins like #4, but this one gently "shines up" the coins when they "needs it" say every few years.

6) through 25 or so) various stages of light actual circulation, from choice AU down to Fair.

26) through about 30) various holed, cut, mutilated, gouged (not lightly scratched, which are included above) altered, counterstamped, etc etc coins. culls and fillers.

ok, you get where I'm going with this: take the coin in question, and LOOK at it.

which kind of coin described above does it RESEMBLE?

if it's a dipped #1 and you can't tell, well then...

if it's a toned #2 or 3 or 4, and LOOKS RIGHT, great!

If it's a #5, how is that different from "wiped" yesterday? I mean if it looks EXACTLY the SAME?

my point is not to try to nail down exactly How a coin Got THAT Way, but to ask

How does it look like it got that way?

Baley

ok, here's a coin I bought at the first coin show my dad took me to, back in 1979.

paid $20, which was a lot to me back then, but I thought it was the prettiest walker I'd ever seen, so I borrowed the money and mowed the lawn for the next two weekends to pay for it.

It hasn't changed color since then, and it's still one of my favorite coins, and I never really "cared" how it got it's color, although I have wondered, and did know a little about toning even back then and knew it looked a little too vivid to be "real", and still think so, I do know it looks AT and would not 'slab'.

and that's ok (its gonna have to be)

crito

The only way I know of to "accelerate" toning is by use of heat. Heat changes the air flow dynamics. You can't get tight bands of color through the use of heat. The gas has to flow over the coin very slowly, which takes time. As the gas moves across the coin (at a fairly consistent rate), reacts and becomes less concentrated, it creates different depths of toning, which refracts light differently, creating tight bands of color. That's my understanding, anyways. The tighter the bands, the longer it took. The broader the bands, therefore, the more quickly the coin toned. Doesn't PROVE whether the coin is AT or not, natural toning can occur quickly too, if, say, you live next to a volcano But the amount of time it took to produce the toning is certainly an important factor to consider, IMHO.

nwcs

>The only way I know of to "accelerate" toning is by use of heat.

Also chemicals being applied can cause a chemical reaction that accelerates it.

Dog97

Baley asked me: ok, say you see a coin, one you've never seen before, and it's beautifully toned... how do you decide HOW it got that way?
Baley if it's an eBay coin then I really don't have a clue as to it's history. Gotta use my own judgment. If I'm not comfortable with that I can get a 2nd OPINION from PCGS or NGC. If THEY agree with me then I pretty sure I'm right.
If it's in a GSA holder, especially certain GSA holders I can say with 99.99% certainty, hey that's original tone.
You have other hoards with their own "Look" but they are a little more tricky.
Lots of collectors & dealers can vouch for coins they know came from older collections in WR holders. Of course you have the "I know somebody that knows somebody that knew somebody and he said she said" kind of deals too. Not ORIGINAL but not AT either.
As far as Whitman folders or envelope tone you can't tell if it spent 40 years in my granddads safe deposit box or 2 years on top of my water heater. Not ORIGINAL but not AT either.
Morgans weren't issued in Mint Sets so that's 1 less toning I have to struggle with.
The blatant ATs are no brainers-a non issue I don't have to struggle with.
Unknown coin in PCGS or NGC holder? Well it's in a major 3rd party holder so it's not blatant AT. I'd say most endroll or bag tone in a 1st gen PCGS slab is probably not doctored and is "safe."
btw old NGC slabs without the separate insert area lets the chemicals from the paper get to the coin and makes for some pretty toning sometimes.

Now for the fine print disclaimer: As far as "experts" go I'm a nobody. A peon. I'm not beating my chest like a hairy gorilla & flaunting my "credentials." I don't walk the bourse of every major show, I haven't opened hundreds of Mint bags of toned Morgans, I've never graded professionally, I'm not a dealer, I haven't owned or handled millions of dollars worth of coins.
BUT I do have common sense and know my series.

dwood

And, if chemicals could be applied to a flip with laser-like precision (child's play these days), toning could/WOULD occur without any thing coming in contact with the coin's surface except gasses.

Its only a matter of time, if the market continues to arbitrarily assign value to toned pieces.

crito

Also chemicals being applied can cause a chemical reaction that accelerates it.

When dealing with gases, I should have said, then. Applied liquids won't produce bands at all. I have heard of people using sulphur powder, gradually brushed off a coin, to simulate banding, however.. sometimes suspended in oil or vaseline and painted on too. They still end up baking 'em tho. I haven't tried a potato yet, but can say definitively that iodine will not tone silver red does bubble a bit while eating holes in your coin

Baley

dog i like your answer and i like your attitude

btw yes, that was a S&W model 629 classic .44 mag in the other thread.

Nysoto

"Intended environment" assumes a small portion of business strikes will be used for numismatic purposes. The state quarters are a prime example of this, many will be place in coin albums, envelopes, drawers, all "intended" environments. Some will be inert and some will produce rainbow toning over time, coin albums and envelopes are intended environments, not AT.

dorkkarl

<< <i>"Intended environment" assumes a small portion of business strikes will be used for numismatic purposes. The state quarters are a prime example of this, many will be place in coin albums, envelopes, drawers, all "intended" environments. Some will be inert and some will produce rainbow toning over time, coin albums and envelopes are intended environments, not AT. >>

by "intended", i mean "intended by the U.S. mint".

note that coins that pick up wild'n'crazy color from proof-set packaging - not a-t, since the packaging was the intended environment.

K S

Nysoto

Dorkkarl,

The United States Mint's website gives instuctions on coin collecting, including collecting business strikes out of pocket change and placing them into coin albums or envelopes. The U.S. Mint's intent is that some pocket change will be placed into coin albums (intended environment) - some will aquire colorful toning over time.

Baley

lmao, ok this "intended environment" guideline can be subdivided infinitely, in fact it can be evaluated for each type or era of coin, and even for each coin! each is it's own unique individual, with it's own unique history... I still think the questions, "what all has happened to this piece since minting? how much has it changed, in what ways, and how do we probably think it happened, and how does it look now?" is more useful in evaluating a coin than, "did it acquire this look in its intended environment or not?"

dorkkarl

it goes w/out saying that "everything is relative", but the concept of "intended environment" is far, far less nebulous than a "gut feeling" that something is a-t. my def'n is not perfect!



<< <i>The United States Mint's website gives instuctions on coin collecting, including collecting business strikes out of pocket change and placing them into coin albums or envelopes. >>

link please



<< <i> The U.S. Mint's intent is that some pocket change will be placed into coin albums >>

friend, are these the same guys (at the U.S. mint) that can't get a coin-redesign in place? that can't stop mint errors from being made-to-order? that botched up the sacagawea mule fiasco? that overminted sacagawea's by the millions? these are the about the last guy's i'd listen to for coin-collecting advice!!! for me, i don't think such comments as to intended environment from a commercial standpoint would have any influence whatsoever on how the "intended environment" would be defined. i stand by my assertion that the intended environment for business-strike coins is circulation, & for proofs, it is proof-holders.

note that before a coin could end up in the collector's albums to acquire that colorful toning, it would have to removed from a prior environment - the intended 1.

K S

dorkkarl

<< <i>this "intended environment" guideline can be subdivided infinitely >>

- but not nearly to the extent that a "gut- feeling" about how a coin acquired it's look. the intent of my def'n is to simplify. the complexity should belong in evaluation of market value.

K S

relayer

I'm waiting for the home toning kit.

You design how you want you coin to look on your computer, then put the coin in a device you plug into your PC and it tones the coin for you just how you like it.

rainbowroosie

dorkkarl,
Here's a real story. I bought a 1999 and 2000 proof silver set and busted out the quarters. Sent the very best technical coins in tio be graded. Didn't know what to do with the 5 leftover coins so I threw them in 1957D mint sets (pink papers). Well, they toned amazingly!! The Georgia is one of the prettiest coins I've ever seen of any denomination....You guessed it, PCGS said it was ATATATATATATATATAT.
rainbowroosie