1959D Mule cent hammered at 42K + juice

onlyroosies

I just got back from the Goldberg auction, I didn't stay for the whole auction, Just till the dimes ended.
There was quite the activity for the Lincolns, Here's the hammer prices for the notibles.

1943 copper cent $85K
1943D copper cent $185K
1944 steel cent $27K
1944D steel cent $31K
1959D mule cent $42K

Also all the bulk Lincoln roll lots went HIGH....

Coqui

What are the grades of these coins???

onlyroosies

43 copper PCGS MS61
43D copper PCGS MS64
44 steel PCGS AU55
44D steel PCGS AU53 ( this was a change from the catalog )
1959D mule cent Raw, catalog listed MS60++

wayneherndon

Does anyone know if the results are available on-line anywhere. I'd like to check a few lots I placed bids on.

Thanks,

WH

michael

wow on the 1959 d mule went for mucho money

either someone knows more about it then the grading services who will not encapsolate it currently

and/or the high bidder must have gotten a heads up from a major grading service

that will encapsulate this coin!


sincerely michael

TheCoinGod

What is a 1959-D Mule Cent?

Thanks,
~Wilson

wondercoin

Actually, my take on the 59(d) sale is simply this: When you just spent around $350,000 on (4) Lincoln errors, why not throw the 5th in for a mere $50k more

I watched in the auction room today as Laura (and TDN on the phone, as he mentioned) stretched as far as they could possibly go, only to lose to the mysterious "phone bidder". If I had just spent $350,000 on 4 Lincoln errors and could pick up the mule for "mere" $50k more, why pass on it? If it turns out OK, you scored big time and if it doesn't pan out, you simply include it with the display of the other 4 coins! And, when it comes time to sell, your asking price likely includes the cost of the mule, if the owner so desires.

I'll tell you what I personally thought of the 43(d) Lincoln - IF I HAD THE MONEY, THAT IS A COIN I WOULD WANT TO OWN. IT WAS A PLEASURE TO VIEW IT. WONDERCOIN

MastaHanky

<< either someone knows more about it then the grading services who will not encapsolate it currently and/or the high bidder must have gotten a heads up from a major grading service that will encapsulate this coin! >>

Or maybe it's the same guy who bought the $34,000 1963 PR70DCAM Lincoln.

gmarguli

If I had just spent $350,000 on 4 Lincoln errors and could pick up the mule for "mere" $50k more, why pass on it?

Because the other 4 errors were made by the US Mint and the mule was made by some counterfeiter?

keets

hey wilson

the 1959-D lincoln mule was minted with the memorial reverse and has caused quite a stir in the numismatic community. i wonder if this sale will help to legitamize it. it baffles me that a wrong die is perceived as being bogus but a wrong planchet is believed and accepted as beyond reproach and genuine. six of one and half a dozen of the other.

al h.

edited to take my foot out of my mouth and thank richbeat------the 1959-D muley was in fact made with the wheat reverse and not the memorial!!!!!! sorry for any confusion.

gmarguli

We know how the wrong planchet errors occurred. The wrong reverse is a mystery (unless the guy who claimed to have made the coin is telling the truth).

wondercoin

Greg: I didn't say I agreed with the action taken on the 59(d) - I just gave you my "take" on how it possibly managed to get to that price level. I then mentioned I would love to own the 43(D)!!

Incidently, I believe the Goldbergs incorrectly stated in the catalog that the finest 44(p) steel is an NGC-MS62. You can view scans of a PCGS-MS63 I slabbed last year for a customer on my website in the "Museum of Coins".

Wondercoin

Dog97

and with the 15% buyers fee that's:
The 1943P Copper Cent PCGS MS 61 $97,750.
The 1944P Steel Cent PCGS AU 55 $31,050.
The 1944D Steel Cent PCGS AU 53 $35,650.
The 1959 Mule Cent RAW $48,300.
AND THE BIG BOY.....
The 1943D Copper Cent PCGS MS 64 sold for $207,000

And error collectors don't get no respect!!

richbeat

wilson,

I think keets meant to say that the 1959D mule cent has the wheat reverse instead of the memorial reverse.

clackamas

Wayne,

The auction results are here; Link

clackamas

Wow those coin rolls went for big money. Makes me want to sell my rolls, my roll collection makes that one look like childs play.

tradedollarnut

I think a new factor in the price of the 1943 copper is its inclusion in the top 10 of the 100 greatest US coins. I feel the coin will now trade at a higher level.

Regarding the 59-D, I have no idea if it's real or not. But if it's real, it's worth $250k or more.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Regarding the 59 D,If its real its worth 250 K or more


TradeDollar Nut - How do you come up with this price? The coin was offered to me for less than 100K by Larry Choate and Steve Benson who BELIEVED it was real because the secret service said it was real.
I'm wondering what I don't know.Please educate me

Stewart

tradedollarnut

Stewart: Perhaps I should say "if it were universally accepted as real", it'd be worth that much.

The fact that the grading services and most major dealers don't agree with the authenticity throws a big damper on the value. If the coin had come out of the director of the mint's estate (or some such) and sold at public auction with the same acclaim as the 1933 Saint, it'd be the classic rarity of the Lincoln series and worth every penny of that amount!

With a copper 43-D selling for for over $200k, I stand by that estimate.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

TDN - Now if the 43 D or the 59 D were RED......I would mortgage my home

dwood

If the Secret Service says the coin is real, how can anyone continue to discuss its legitimacy? If they say it's real, folks, it's real.

wayneherndon

clackamas--thanks for the link!

WH

keets

........as per my earlier reply, i fail to understand why there is controversy over the 1959-D while the wrong planchet 1943's and 1944's are accepted so graciously. certainly the possibility exists that a less than scrupulous mint worker inserted an obsolete 1958 working reverse die, struck one coin and smuggled it out of the mint. isn't it also totally feasible that an unscrupulous mint worker struck copper planchets in 1943 and steel planchets in 1944 and subsequently smuggled them out of the mint?? but ah, you say, only one 1959-D muley lends suspicion. perhaps there are more, perhaps it's the only one and was made illegally, we shall never in fact know.

as if this would be the first time that there has been surreptitious activity undertaken at the mint!!!! come on guys, get real. that coin is just to cool!!!! it's the right weight, the right diameter, the right composition and from what i understand the design features are genuine. accept it and be as overjoyed for the new owner as you are that he has those cool 1943 and 1944 cents. sheesh..........

time for a reality check.

al h.

pontiacinf

congrats to Bruce on the article in numismatist

DesertLizard

Somethings never make sense.

The 1959-D cent has been deemed real by the Treasury [Secret Service]. Why do grading services have a problem? How many coins have they said were real and they were not?!! They need to get real!

As for the price of $250,ooo I say what is the basis? Justify that price tag. For an error? Even if the coin was minted illegally it remains an "error".

The above notwithstanding, I would love to own it but not for more than$25k. Too many other "real" coins out there worth owning.

tradedollarnut

I don't need to justify the price - the market already has justified it. If the coin was accepted as a without a doubt mint product, it would be worth much more than the 43-D copper cent "error" that just exceeded the $200k point.

I can state without a doubt that Legend would have been in past $100k - and I don't even collect Lincolns. Just because you wouldn't care to pay the price, doesn't mean that others wouldn't!

dbldie55

<< <i>Something never make sense.

The 1959-D cent has been deemed real by the Treasury [Secret Service]. Why do grading services have a problem? How many coins have they said was real and it was not?!! They need to get real!

As for the price of $250,ooo I say what is the basis? Justify that price tag. For an error? Even if the coin was minted illegally it remains an "error".

The above notwith standing, I would love to own it but not for more than$25k. Too many other "real" coins out there worth owning. >>




The secret service has a wonderful track record for being WRONG when determining what is real. There were many examples pointed out in the past when this coin was discussed.

keithdagen

The secret service has a wonderful track record for being WRONG when determining what is real. There were many examples pointed out in the past when this coin was discussed.

The key is that on two occasions, the Secret Service has determined that the coin is not confiscatable. Whether the coin is a true error, or a man-made "late at night" job, the coin exists and has the appearance of having been created at the Denver Mint.

tradedollarnut

The key is that on two occasions, the Secret Service has determined that the coin is not confiscatable. Whether the coin is a true error, or a man-made "late at night" job, the coin exists and has the appearance of having been created at the Denver Mint.

But still, the difference in value is huge. The 1933 $20, prior to legitimization, was worth only $1M - some of that due to the threat of immediate confiscation and some of it due to it's illegitimacy. Once the coin was legitimized (and the threat of confiscation removed), it realized $7.6M!

The threat of confiscation has been removed from the 59-D, but not the taint of illegitimacy. Therefore, the value is not even a quarter of what it would be if it was a pedigreed mint product

rwhite

I believe that the SS never said it was real... they only said they didnt think it was fake... I know, I know... its basically the same thing, but they may have very different lawful meanings.

edit: the US Secret Service.. not the Nazi SS... just in case anyone was wondering.

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Legend would have been in over 100 K........and I don't even collect Lincolns

Whew !! Barber dimes are enough !!

TDN - I heard through reputable sources that the buyer of the 59 d was a different buyer than the 43's

Stewart

Gerry

PCGS “recognized” the 1943 and 1944 off-metal coins just before the Goldberg auction. Prior to that, PCGS only graded the off-metal coins as “mint errors” and did not include them in the population report. I think this change in “recognition” had some upward effect on the prices the coins bought.

I believe all four coins that sold were each crossovered from either NGC or ANACS holders. If they had been offered in the NGC or ANACS holders, or offered as PCGS “mint errors” I think they may have sold at somewhat less, maybe 20%-25% less.

What about the future? Any predictions? Here are some thoughts on effects:

I suppose that over time those coins in PCGS holders that are labled as “mint errors” will be resubmitted, reholdered with a new insert and then included in the pop report. Also, owners of some of the NGC and ANACS coins may attempt crossover to PCGS. Will the larger pop numbers increase or decrease interest in these coins?

Will this sale encourages other off-metal coins to come to market? According to David Lange, there are about 15 or so other 1943 copper coins and 35 or so other 1944 steel coins. So there is a decent sized pool of coins out there in the hobby. If several of them are offered in auction or otherwise, the market may well be tested to see if the high prices paid the other day are high, or (conceivably) low.