1st Coin Show - AT Morgan or Real ?

Lori · February 23, 2003 3:59AM

I went to my first coin show today and picked up this Morgan that I like. It bothers me alittle because I think it might be AT. The dealer did not think so. Of course he may have just wanted to get rid of it. It seems to have a solid strike on the obv with not many marks. The rev bothers me because the breast feathers are very weak. What is your take on this coin. Is it AT? If yes what makes you think so.
Also what grade to you think it would get. There are two pictures of front and back to help see the colors.

Thank you in advance.

Lori

Large Picture

relayer · February 23, 2003 4:03AM

Coins don't naturally tone with straight lines and 45 degree angles. AT hack job.

rwhite · February 23, 2003 4:04AM

regardless if its orig or AT, it sure is interesting!

Russ · February 23, 2003 4:04AM

I have to go with Relayer and postulate a WAG of AT.

Russ, NCNE

rwhite · February 23, 2003 4:05AM

oh yeah, i forgot to say what I think. AT, i believe.

sinin1 · February 23, 2003 4:12AM

I'm thinking AU 50 maybe 55.

The outside diameter 10% on the reverse looks awefully real - the inside 2/3's looks awful.

You have some really nice coins pictured - what kind of camera do you use?

Lori · February 23, 2003 4:16AM

I am just extremly mad that this dealer lied to me. He should have known it is AT. He did say I could return it if I decided it was At but did not give me a name or anything. I can find him in a month at another show. I doubt he would take it back then. Oh well. It is still pretty and I will send it to ANACS and see what they think. I got luck on the last one most thought was AT.

I use an Olympus Camedia c-4000 zoom. It has excellent macro features. I sometimes have problems with lighting but for the most part the pictures look just like the coin.

Lori

FC57Coins · February 23, 2003 4:19AM

<< have to go with Relayer and postulate a WAG of AT. >>

I can't use big words like Russ does - but unfortunately Lo, I think you've got an AT coin there. The red flags for me is the "pooled liquid" look on both sides of the coins, the fact that you have the exact same pattern on both sides, the colors "aren't right" - they bleed over the devices and over the rims. When I look at something like this, I ask myself the question - ok how could this type of toning have been created? The only thing I can come up with is that someone poured some chemical on the coin and baked it. Even if you thought about the end coin on a shotgun roll, it would not have the same toning on both sides.

Frank

gsaguy · February 23, 2003 4:31AM

Lori,

I've never seen anything quite like it. Be sure to let us know what ANACS does with the coin...although I'm reasonably sure they'll BB the coin.

When you make such a purchase at a show and the dealer gives you a 'buy back' pledge, make sure you know the terms of the buy back....ie time limits, percentage of your original purchase price, etc. Oh yea, and don't forget to get his business card as well..........although you've probably already figured that out.

GSAGUY

Russ · February 23, 2003 4:35AM

<< I am just extremly mad that this dealer lied to me. >>

Lori,

Do you know how to tell when a coin dealer is lying?

Russ, NCNE

gemtone65 · February 23, 2003 4:35AM

It's curious that the toning pattern on this Morgan bears a seemingly remarkable resemblance to that of your Kennedy half dollar icon.

Lori · February 23, 2003 4:42AM

The kennedy is slabbed by PCGS.

Lori

I guess I can't tell if people are lying. I assume a dealer would have more knowledge on the AT subject. He was sure telling me about all the ways to bake a coin. Maybe that should have been my tip off, huh.

relayer · February 23, 2003 4:49AM

<< It's curious that the toning pattern on this Morgan bears a seemingly remarkable resemblance to that of your Kennedy half dollar icon. >>

Now that you pointed it out, I see it.

Lori,

Did you buy your Kennedy from the same dealer? Seems like he's got a standard mold or pad for his thongs to make the same shape.

BTW: The answer to Russ's question is "when their lips are moving".

stujoe · February 23, 2003 4:51AM

I have not a clue if it is real or AT. Looks pretty though, to me. Isn't the fact that the insides of the letters of Liberty and in the other cracks and crevices are a different color than the areas higher than them a sign on possible natural toning?

TomB · February 23, 2003 4:53AM

Well, I'll have to say that in my opinion the coin is AU and is also likely AT. I say this because the obverse has some extremely vivid blue and purple near the rim but the toning abruptly stops to yield an essentially untoned area just inside the stars and letters. If the coin were stored in a crimp-ended roll I could imagine something like this occuring, but it doesn't have that look. Otherwise, I would expect some areas of dissipated toning after the vivid colors stopped. Also, all around the stars and letters there appears to be a lighter area. I have seen this on many genuinely toned coins, however, when this happens it is usually because the untoned "shadows" are within strongly toned areas, not essentially untoned areas. Additionally, the reverse also has that curious, not-quite-circular, not-quite-jaggedy type of toning and I doubt there are many ways that both sides could be toned this way. The reverse also appears to have that vivid blue and purple in an odd pattern, matching the obverse. Lastly, I think the coin is AU and AU coins do not typically tone in the same manner as MS coins. What I am saying here is that AU coins will more likely have deeper, more subdued color schemes, not the vivid blues and purples it looks like are present when viewing the image on my monitor.

Russ · February 23, 2003 4:54AM

Hehe, you know what will happen? Lori will ship it off for grading and it'll get slabbed. We should all edit our posts now.

Russ, NCNE

Lori · February 23, 2003 4:54AM

No the Morgan and Kennedy are not the same dealer. I got the kennedy from mbcoins on ebay. They have some beautiful toned coins. I do like the coin and the rich colors it has. Who knows maybe ANACS will think it is natural too.

I get the joke now Russ.

Just a tad slow in WI.

Lori

coinguy1 · February 23, 2003 5:03AM

The coin has the wrong colors/pattern for it to be original - I think it's AT - sorry.

Lori · February 23, 2003 5:04AM

Remember...

Alot of you thought this was AT too.

Lori

Russ · February 23, 2003 5:05AM

<< Alot of you thought this was AT too. >>

Lori,

Not all. I got lucky on that one.

Russ, NCNE

TomB · February 23, 2003 5:07AM

I didn't say that I thought that coin now in the ANACS slab was AT, however, the current coin is AT as far as I am concerned, based on the images provided.

Baley · February 23, 2003 5:27AM

I think the coin in the anacs slab is slightly less than completely natural-looking, but have seen worse.

I think the new coin in question is very un-natural looking and have seen fewer that look worse.

again, I think the binary decision of [slab/bag] fails to take into account the range of looks that toned coins can achieve in the years since they were minted, but these two coins illustrate pretty well the concepts of "just made it in" for the first one, and "probably no way" for the second.

jbsteven · February 23, 2003 6:16AM

to me it looks AT, BUT I like the colors! do you? who cares if it is AT unless you paid big money for it.

Lori · February 23, 2003 7:14AM

I bought the coin because I liked it. Of course I would love for you guys to be wrong and it to be graded. I paid more then it is worth if it is AT ($75). If it isn't then I got it cheap.

Lori

jbsteven · February 23, 2003 7:45AM

lori

As long as you like it don't worry what all of us say! Here are 2 pieces of art that I like and own that was created by Christian Lassen. If no one else likes it too bad!

Lori · February 23, 2003 7:51AM

I think those are awesome pictures. Beautiful!

Lori

dwood · February 23, 2003 7:54AM

God I love FISH!

(jb...I know, I know....and they are stunning works of art!)

jbsteven · February 23, 2003 7:54AM

lori

me too, and that's my point. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

Baley · February 23, 2003 7:55AM

I too think those dolphin pictures are pretty neat.

that 1889 dollar, though, looks AU and with questionable color at best, and in my opinion would have to cost less than $20 to make it even start to be attractive to my eyes. sorry, but at least that's just one man's opinion.

jbsteven · February 23, 2003 7:57AM

dwood, actually my wife likes dolphins (or fish as you called them) but I appreciate the art of making the colors come alive (hence my appreciation of toned dollars). I have met the artist in person a he is a pretty cool dude, long hair does what he wants, when he wants just like me

link to the artists website (most of his art is priced from $4000 and waaaay up

link to artist website

dwood · February 23, 2003 8:08AM

Wow, I thought I replied but I guess I didn't post it???

Anyway...

JB,
My dad was a fairly accomplished painter/photographer, totally freelance, but published and commisioned several times. As a result, I learned early on the difficulties in capturing the qualities and nature of light. This guy "gets it." He has a tremendous grasp of lights behavior and his colors are amazingly vibrant. They're truly beautiful paintings.

And my "fish comment" was just an ice breaker...but I do love fish

jbsteven · February 23, 2003 8:11AM

dwood

if you happen to be in las vegas go by his place at the ceasar palace shopping mall. you think the colors are nice on your monitor, they will knock your socks off in person.

i caught the fish thing

gemtone65 · February 23, 2003 8:45AM

Most importantly, I think the coin is AU. That being the case, the issue of AT or not as relates to the value of this coin is moot. But, just academically, you don't see AU coins with such vibrant toning. If the coin has wear, the toning, if original, sould be worn as well. The combination of colors is not quite right either, and the way the toning clusters around the stars bothers me also. That said, it's possible that this coin was used in a necklace with a holder that surrounded the coin. That could explain the shape of the toning, and possibly the colors as well, depending on the composition of the holder.

dwood · February 23, 2003 8:59AM

Lori,
Did the dealer give it a grade?

Lori · February 23, 2003 9:04AM

No, he did not give me a grade. Just told me in his opinion it was not AT.

Lori

FrankinWI · February 23, 2003 10:10AM

Lori,

If you can PM me the location of the dealer table at the show today where you bought this coin, I can probably get you the dealers name and phone number. The show's bourse chairman is a friend of mine.

Frank

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 10:38AM

Lori, that coin is a textbook example of a cooked artificially toned Morgan. The biggest tip off is the "liquid pooled look" as others have mentioned. The way it is done is by placing liquid chemicals on the coin's surface and baking it in an oven. The key diagnostics are a circular pattern of vibrant colors, then an abrupt change to brown, which is what extreme heat does to white silver.

As far as the grade, it definitely has seen circulation, and with the usual disclaimer of it being hard to tell from an image, I would say it would grade in the AU55 range.

Dog97 · February 23, 2003 12:23PM

I'd say it a bad coin.
Yep you sure fooled us with that 96 you got in an ANACS slab. I just look at it wonder how'd that get in a slab. I can show you another one in an ANACS slab that I wonder about. It's in my sig. If you saw that raw wouldn't all you guys think AT? Anybody ever seen a sky blue Peace? Look at it-even has a white spot on the left side where doc held it with a pair of pliers while he heated it.

pmh1nic · February 23, 2003 12:29PM

Lori

ATed.

"As long as you like it don't worry what all of us say!"

True. The opinions of others will only matter when you go to sell the coin.

stman · February 23, 2003 12:38PM

<< Anybody ever seen a sky blue Peace? Look at it-even has a white spot on the left side where doc held it with a pair of pliers while he heated it. >>

You don't know who "he" is do you. Just asking now.

Typetone · February 23, 2003 12:54PM

Russ:

How do you know if a coin dealer is lying?

Answer:

If the're talking the're lying, talking the're lying, talking the're lying.

Greg

RotatedRainbows · February 23, 2003 10:43PM

How do you know if a coin dealer is lying?

Answer:

If the're talking the're lying, talking the're lying, talking the're lying.

I thought the answer to that question was

If their lips move!!

dorkkarl · February 24, 2003 12:56AM

a-t, & i do not like it. mkt-unacceptable for me.

K S

MadMonk · February 24, 2003 1:37AM

That piece looks like it has gone thru a old cleaning trick.
Take an coin that is fully, but not attractively toned.
Use a q-tip lightly dampened with jewel luster by itself, or adding a smidgen of acetone.
Try to remove some toning from the centers of the coin, leaving the rims toned to suggest originality. Sometimes they try to do an accelerated re-tone to the center.
I knew a dealer who did this quite frequently and got them slabbed at PCGS, but he did not retone the pieces.

eagle7 · February 24, 2003 4:54AM

These "dealers" are certainly smart enough to know when a coin will slab by a certain grading service and when it wont. And by the way, just because ANACS slabbed that other coin doesnt mean PCGS or NGC would do so. I say they are both AT, I dont care what ANACS says.

dwood · February 24, 2003 5:06AM

God, I hope Lori is right....

again

FrankinWI · March 1, 2003 3:27AM

Lori,

I PM'd you the dealers name and phone number. I hope you can work out a return on the coin.

Frank

MrKelso · March 1, 2003 8:41AM

Closed 9 variation
According to Breen Book many mint bags popped up in 1954
The tonning has some straight lines as if someone was trying to make it appear this was in the end of a roll for a long time, Not knowing enough about tonning i have no other tonning comments.

Grade? Hmmmm the rev has very weak breast feathers the obv has a facial hit. this is a tuff coin to grade with out holding it.

MS63/64??

1st Coin Show - AT Morgan or Real ?

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