Forum Decorum

tradedollarnut · February 23, 2003 1:12AM

This line of thought was touched on in another thread, but it contains so many images of beautiful coins that my poor old dial up was having a cow trying to follow it.

What is the proper forum decorum regarding others posting their coin? I would have to argue that it is 100% acceptable to respond with one's true thoughts regarding the coin no matter if they are positive or negative. I feel this way for different reasons for coins owned by collectors or dealers:

For a coin owned by a collector, feedback is an important part of the learning process. Even tho the coin might be posted seeking accolades, a properly worded inquiry as to whether or not a problem was noticed might give that collector some added new knowledge. Certainly tact is an important part of bringing the problem up!

For a coin owned by a dealer and for sale at the current time, I can see absolutely no reason not to discuss every attribute of the coin. If a dealer is using the forum to further his business enterprise, be it for selling that particular coin or just building a name for himself, then all holds are off. After all, if someone posts a link to a coin in auction, don't we feel free to then cut that coin to shreds? The dealer putting the coin on the forum is no different in my mind.

What say you?

ANACONDA · February 23, 2003 1:17AM

I totally disagree. If a guy posts a coin and doesn't ask for a critique, to begin to criticize the coin seems like the thing to do if public nose picking is also your pleasure.

You wanna teach? Then teach. Become an educator at the summer ANA program, write a book, volunteer to teach a course at a show.

Start a coin club.

You can teach many people using images taken out of the Heritage site for instruction.

Way more preferable....but more work. Ah, yes, that dirty word.

You wanna hurt people's fellings.....slam their coins.

When someone shows me a coin at a show, i don't say..."Oh, too bad, did you see this hairline on the rim."

Why would decorum here be any different than at a coin show....because any girl can insult a nameless faceless person behind a monitor?

And i cerainly wouldn't slam someone's coin in front of another person, let alone 8,675 forum readers, unless they asked for criticism.

This seems so elemental....

FC57Coins · February 23, 2003 1:19AM

<< For a coin owned by a collector, feedback is an important part of the learning process. Even tho the coin might be posted seeking accolades, a properly worded inquiry as to whether or not a problem was noticed might give that collector some added new knowledge. Certainly tact is an important part of bringing the problem up! >>

I couldn't agree with you more. We should be able to provide pros and cons about the coin and give advice without having to resort to insulting the owner of the coin and risking them feeling bad. Some collectors cannot afford high priced coins and do the best they can with their resources. Sometimes they make good choices, sometimes not so good - but we have to remind ourselves that this forum is first and foremost about learning... Yes we can have fun, but not at the expense of other participants. Anyone can be critical of a particular coin and point out it's defects, but it should end there. When the barbs start flying about how stupid someone is for collecting a particular coin, or making, or even considering the purchase of an item, that's when my blood starts to boil.

Frank

MacCoin · February 23, 2003 1:21AM

for me if I like the coin I say so. If it is something I don't like I'll say so and why I don't like it. If the seller has a hard time with that I sorry

IrishMike · February 23, 2003 1:22AM

Amen, if you only post coins expecting folks to like them as much as you do get ready to put of the flak jacket. I personally rarely comment on a coin I don't like, because I strongly feel every one has the same right that I give myself, i.e. to collect what ever I like. All bets are off if they ask me my opinion. Surprisingly to many, tact has never been a strong suit of mine. Perhaps if I was more skilled I would comment on individual coins more often.

Even at FUN I noticed a hesistancy on the part of most to criticize a coin that someone had brought to show off. Of course most of the ones the forum members had literally blew me away.

coindaughter · February 23, 2003 1:24AM

It seems simple: respond to the thread in the spirit in which it was posted.

Don't slam a simple inquiry. Do teach if it seems appropriate. Be kind always--no matter what you say! Remember, there are real people sitting on the other side of the screen.

This forum is absolutely incredible for learning.

edited for spelling. I'm still half asleep.

stujoe · February 23, 2003 1:26AM

My two bits...
For collectors:
Honest opinions are good and can be a very good learning tool too. Tact is paramount, though, I think. Myself, I can take anything anyone says about any coin or item I post. Call it junk, it doesn't bother me. Odds are I know it is junk.

But, I don't want to come down with both barrels blazing on anyone's coin unless they are really asking for the straight dope on it. If someone says "Look at my pretty coin." I would be very hesitant to call it a piece of crap. Pointing out something politely is ok, though. We get attached to our 'babies' though so a poster should expect a little defensiveness if they do comment negatively without being asked to.
For dealers:
I really think the rules are a little looser if it is a collector commenting on a dealer’s coin that they have posted. Obviously, I don't think they should trash it and make it personal but being more critical of it is ok, I believe. Sorry, if it is a double standard but I do think the rules are a little different.
If another dealer is going to comment, however, I think they need to toe the line very carefully. It sometimes comes across as disingenuous with ulterior motives when one dealer criticizes another’s inventory.

IrishMike · February 23, 2003 1:28AM

If someone posts a picture with the intent to sell it, then I agree different rules. It's not only fair to discuss it's attributes but warranted.

RGL · February 23, 2003 1:28AM

When I post a coin, I hope to receive honest opinions. I'm a big boy, I can take it if others do not care for my coin. Of course, one should always treat such situations gently and with tact and not lambast someone as an idiot or be harsh. Constructive criticism is at the root of learning ... explain why you believe a poster's coin has problems, etc. And again, you can be nice about it.

dragon · February 23, 2003 1:33AM

If anyone remembers, I used to frequently post pics of some of my coins here on the forum. I stopped doing that because of some of the negative remarks ocassionally made by some people (and these were usually the people LEAST qualified to make any remark IMO). I also believe that some people tend to focus their negative remarks towards not only the coin itself, but also the person posting the pic, which is unfortunate.

I think if you have a seriously negative comment you want to make about someone elses coins, you can and should do it via a PM, and not out in the open.

dragon

ah · February 23, 2003 1:43AM

I personally, want the input of what other folks think about any given
subject, just respond to the with your opinion as best as possible.
That is what the forum is basically for. Input/Output, sort of like a computer.

WACoinGuy · February 23, 2003 1:49AM

I still have a lot to learn about coins, and when I post a coin I'm definitely more interested in feedback that will help me learn. As a result, I'm more inclined to post pictures of coins that I am either having trouble grading, telling if it's been cleaned, etc. So for those who have been replying with feedback, I say keep it up!

dwood · February 23, 2003 1:55AM

I'm with coindaughter on this one. It isn't as difficult as we're making it.

Gilbert · February 23, 2003 2:00AM

I'm probably going to be in the minority here, if not the sole respondent with this train of thought, but ...

I was under the impression that "coins for sale" should be posted elsewhere anyway.

With that in mind, if I have constructive criticism about a collectors coin, I will offer it as tactfully as I can, when solicited. If I have a question, I try an present it tactfully as I can. If I don't like the coin simply because of my own preferences, and have nothing constuctive to offer ....

I keep my mouth shut. Who am I to disparage anyone's coin(s). Everyone can't have a multi-thousand dollar (and take that to whatever amount you like) collection.

The "look how much better my $hit is than yours" style of presentation, frankly makes me sick. Sure, post any coin(s) you want, for our VIEWING pleasure; just leave the attitude somewhere else.

coinguy1 · February 23, 2003 2:03AM

I think it's ok to make positive or negative comments about coins posted here, whether they belong to colectors or dealers.

But, I think criticisms should be made in a polite way and, as has been mentioned already, aimed at the coins, but not the posters, themselves.

One important thing that forum members need to keep in mind - many times the feedback (positive or negative), even if well intentioned, is not necessarily accurate or correct or expert.

ANACONDA · February 23, 2003 2:07AM

Mark, i agree.....reading some of the critiques that people post and then looking at their post count leads one to believe that some folks
should spend more time at coins shows and reading then posting their rapidly formulated opinions which they hold with white knuckes
which are grounded on the thinnest of experience.

Know what you are best at. Teaching isn't my goal. I want to learn and have fun.

You want to get a real education? Start buying and selling coins.

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 2:18AM

<< I'm probably going to be in the minority here, if not the sole respondent with this train of thought, but ...

I was under the impression that "coins for sale" should be posted elsewhere anyway.

With that in mind, if I have constructive criticism about a collectors coin, I will offer it as tactfully as I can, when solicited. If I have a question, I try an present it tactfully as I can. If I don't like the coin simply because of my own preferences, and have nothing constuctive to offer ....

I keep my mouth shut. Who am I to disparage anyone's coin(s). Everyone can't have a multi-thousand dollar (and take that to whatever amount you like) collection.

The "look how much better my $hit is than yours" style of presentation, frankly makes me sick. Sure, post any coin(s) you want, for our VIEWING pleasure; just leave the attitude somewhere else. >>

Very interesting comments Gilbert, considering your response to the two toned Morgans I posted last week.

MacCoin · February 23, 2003 2:23AM

if someone don't like my coin I can deal with it. I want to know if its some you like or not if its posted. if someone says something like I stupid for collecting that coin I don't care. it just helps me judge what kind of person they are. I do like your opinions but the botton like is I collect what I like and can afford.

crito · February 23, 2003 2:25AM

Every time I see someone driving a new Corvette, I think they must be compensating for something, or the lack thereof. If they were to post a picture of it here, I don't think that would be a polite opinion to express.

Opinions are a dime a dozen. I have no problem with people stating facts emphatically, but doing so with opinions is somewhat arrogant. And that's the problem with many of the "experts" in this hobby, they state opinions as if they were facts and try and use their credentials (or years of experience) as supporting evidence. Still worth a dime a dozen to me.

Android · February 23, 2003 2:26AM

<< Certainly tact is an important part of bringing the problem up! >>

This is certainly true. But I would maintain that this will unfortunately NEVER happen in an internet forum.

Andy

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 2:29AM

Slamming other's coins goes on all the time, not only here, but in every other coin discussion forum. It is one thing if a newbie posts a coin and asks for honest opinions. It is something totally different though when you have specialized in a certain series for years, and someone thinks they are "teaching" you something by slamming your coins. I find most of the time, the people doing the slamming are people that don't specialize in anything in particular, and usually not very knowledgable in the series they are slamming.

With all that said, I don't think it is going to change. Over inflated egos are part and parcel of the coin world, you just have to consider the source.

ANACONDA · February 23, 2003 2:31AM

(It is interesting to recognize the human dynamics here of us trying to rule ourselves and set up guidelines so that we can co-exist. Wouldn't it have been simply spine-tingling to have been a participant in the founding of our country when the guidelines for our country were created?)

Gemini · February 23, 2003 2:31AM

I think personal attacks are hurtful no matter how thick your skin is and has no place when commenting on ones coins be it dealer or collector.
Does it cost anything extra to be nice and use a little tact?

Gilbert · February 23, 2003 2:33AM

Help me out K6AZ. You surely can't be talking about the post I started out with:

Obviously, I don't know $hit from shinola ... and then went on to ask for an opinion, or guidance on something I started out saying I didn't understand in the first place. Is THAT it?

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 2:41AM

Gilbert, you left out this part:

<< 'cause, at first blush, I would avoid something like that like the plague. >>

I came back and gave you an answer, but you never replied to it. If you had left out the above quote, I wouldn't have taken it as a slam.

crito · February 23, 2003 2:42AM

In my opinion Gilbert, there's nothing wrong with saying "I don't know" or "I'm not sure"... in fact, that's probably the starting point to finding out. Not sure who said it first, but there's a saying that goes something like "The more I learn, the more I realize how much there is to know". As far as I'm concerened, it's the people who act like they already know everything that are real morons. Not the people who say "I don't know".

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 2:51AM

By the way, those came back from NGC as MS64 and MS65. There was no doubt in my mind about the toning.

Dog97 · February 23, 2003 2:52AM

TDN-
If somebody posts an opinion wanted, what's the grade, or a how'd I do type of thread I'll tear it up. I'll rag on it and enjoy doing it. It makes no difference to me if the coin in question is owned by you, Anaconda, Legend, Pinnacle or Russ. If you haven't noticed I usually reserve my opinions for Morgans though.
If somebody posts a coin and their obvious intent is to share the beauty or joy of a coin they find attractive I will make a comment like yeah that's really pretty, I like it, cool, and be sincere. If I don't like it then I'll pass on making comments. If somebody posts a $20k or $30k coin with a big fat greasy fingerprint on the obv field I just can't help myself and might comment in a less than positive way.
On the other hand I've noticed that when I post a coin it seeks like nobody wants to make a negative comment on my coins. All the many coins I post here I do own and I know some of them aint so great and all of you are welcome to rag on mine. I appreciate all comments, positive & negative because it makes me lok at my coins from a different slant and see other's points of view which makes me a better collector or as sincerly micheal says "astute."

Bear · February 23, 2003 2:55AM

We must remember that people have feeling, even dealers. Some people are more sensetive

to criticism then others. If you must critique, then tact is the thing to utilize. If you must say something

bad about a coin, then there must be something positive to say about that coin. If you think that an

absolute fraud has been perpetrated on the collector, then the person should be warned. One most

always remember what may seem junk to one collector, may well be a treasure to another collector

Many collectors have a hard time finding the money to fund their hobby. They buy the best coins

they can afford even though in may be in a lower circulated state. Respect anothers collecting style,

praise their interest and kindness in shairing their joy. Be a friend and not a drama critic.Being an

elitist sourpuss gets attention, but rather grows old very fast on the Forum. I do not ask people to

be false, but sometimes it is kinder to hold ones tongue then to speak your thoughts in a manner

that can be construed by the receiver as cruel and full of spite. Before you speak, have a jelly donut

it will lift your spirit and brighten your outlook on life. Bear

DHeath · February 23, 2003 3:03AM

I appreciate all comments, positive & negative because it makes me look at my coins from a different slant and see other's points of view which makes me a better collector or as sincerly micheal says "astute."

Dog, I wish I'd said that. I may still disagree with a post, but I love hearing most other collectors thought process (the ones I respect anyway). I've got no ego about my grading skills, but it doesn't take long here to know which opinions are worth consideration, and offered sincerely.

EVillageProwler · February 23, 2003 3:05AM

Have y'all noticed that this weekend, we've had some big disagreements. Yet, we've by and large disagreed rather civilly. Perhaps Carol's message to us sank in?!?

EVP

Bear · February 23, 2003 3:09AM

Message, what message. Why am I always the last to know. Why havnt

I been informed. Im so upset, I will have to have a jelly donut to settle my nerves.

ANACONDA · February 23, 2003 3:16AM

Rasberry filled? Man, i love donuts. And ice cream.

Gilbert · February 23, 2003 3:16AM

K6AZ

Okay. I find it hard to believe that this comment thread is "slamming" you or your coins. Should I then take your response as "slamming" me back? No. It is pretty much what we both said.

FrattLaw · February 23, 2003 3:21AM

Hey, I get slammed for being an attorney, and that doesn't bother me. Those that have thin skin, its easy, don't post anything. Someone will always have a different point of view, some will express it nicely, others will not. That is to be expected. While I have never nor will I ever, personally attack anyone on these Boards, even in self-defense, it's going to happen. I'll never come one here and put down someone or their coin, I wouldn't shy away from someone doing it to me.

If you like your coin, that should be enough. If you need the world to like, then you open the coin as well as yourself to disdain and ridicule. Don't complain when it happens, take your lumps and move on.

Do we need Forum Moderators?

Michael

JohnButlerfromLV · February 23, 2003 3:24AM

<< You want to get a real education? Start buying and selling coins. >>

Very true. I've paid many hundreds of thousands of dollars for my degree in numismatics.

Also, I agree with the member that said this should be done in the buy, sell and trade forum.
Perhaps dealers should list their pictures in that forum. Collectors who want opinions or just want to show off their latest prize could show their material here.
I'm taking the approach of not showing coins on any part of the forum myself. Why would I ever want to get rid of my best coins here where it will be torn to shreds by the forum members?
I'll keep the pretty coins and the set registry quality coins in our showcase where its much safer. When we're ready to move those items we can always ship them off to an auction and let them take the heat.
John Butler
Sahara Coins
&
Vintage Paper Memories

Bear · February 23, 2003 3:25AM

No moderators, more jelly donuts!!!!!!

keets · February 23, 2003 4:20AM

...........i say discover the PM function and use it.

al h.

airplanenut · February 23, 2003 4:28AM

The real problem here is insulting a coin vs. insulting an owner... for example:

I post a picture of coin A- it has a toning pattern that is such that you like it or you don't... some people will like it, but it's not one of those rainbows that the overwhelming majority will like... two responses are:

"I don't like that coin because I find the mix of colors in that pattern displeasing. But, since you are happy with your coin, and because it is your coin, I am happy for you that you are happy."

or

"That coin is just FUGLY! Can't you see that all coins with that toning pattern suck? Don't get me started with the toning pattern! How about you learn to see what a real pretty coin looks like before you go posting your crap?!"

Obviously, for post number one, someone is displaying distaste in the coin, but understands that it's mine, and I like it regardless, which is why I own it. Number two feels that I am a bad collector because our tastes clash. If he could be as kind to understand that we have differing tastes, then he can say why he doesn't like what I have and we can move on...

Personal bashings based on what we show, not the coins themselves, are probably the larger problem here.

Jeremy

JMOORE · February 23, 2003 4:33AM

My Mom always told me that if you don't have something nice to say...........................

nwcs · February 23, 2003 4:35AM

Someone told me last Friday that I'm more willing to learn than be taught. I suspect that's true of more people than myself, though. I think any helpful critique is good, but it seems that it so quickly degenerates into an argument. Still, I try to find the silver lining of wisdom in the clouds of blowhard statements.

Neil

Russ · February 23, 2003 4:49AM

This thread has been an unusually civil discussion, and I just figured out why. It's because nobody has posted a coin image for criticism! Out of my concern for the health of all participants and their need to release all that dangerous pent up frustration, here's one for everyone to attack:

Note: In consideration of TDN's dialup situation, I have severely optimized the above image.

Okay, attack it! Feel better one and all!

Russ, NCNE

gemtone65 · February 23, 2003 6:05AM

The extent to which a negative comment is appropriate in response to a posted thread with picture, it seems to me, depends on which of 3 circumstances apply. First, suppose the poster says something like "I just bought this coin, I love it, and I'm putting it into my personal collection." Here, is see no reason to make a negative comment. The poster has not asked for objective views, and no one need be warned off of the coin. If you don't have anything nice to say, be quiet. Negative PM's aren't needed (or welcome) either, unless you happen to know the coin is counterfeit or stolen.

The second situation occurs when the poster asks, " What do you think of this piece?" In this instance there are a variety of reasons why the poster might want candid comments, albeit tactfullly offered, even if they are negative. They include 1) the coin may still be returnable, or 2) the poster simply wants to learn from the experience of the members.

The third scenario involves the implicit or explicit impression that the coin is available for sale. In this case, most gloves can be taken off. This is proper because of the responsibility to educate others here about what they might be instore for if they purchased the coin. Moreover, this is really not the proper place to be shopping coins, so if you do so, you should be willing to accept the criticism of your piece along with the plaudits.

Notice, if you accept my classification, there is no need to distinguish whether the poster is a novice, expert collector, or dealer. It's just that for most collectors who post here, the inference is typically drawn that the pictured coin is not for sale, unless stated otherwise. For a dealer, the opposite inference can usually be drawn, with the consequence that, in my view, fair criticism of the piece is not inappropriate, unless the dealer notes that the coin was acquired for his personal collection.

crito · February 23, 2003 6:53AM

By the way, those came back from NGC as MS64 and MS65. There was no doubt in my mind about the toning.

Let me say first that I haven't even looked at the coins being discussed, and they might be 100% real.... but being in a slab doesn't PROVE the toning is original or that the coin is completely problem-free. ALL it proves is that the graders who saw it that day found the coin to be "market acceptable". Many of the tone fans here switched to NGC when PCGS started body bagging more of the "questionable" coins. I wonder how many of those now being sold in NGC slabs come with full disclosure? Where's the auction that says "PCGS bagged it as AT but NGC slabbed it anyways"? Hmm?

cointoast · February 23, 2003 7:07AM

This thread has been an unusually civil discussion, and I just figured out why. It's because nobody has posted a coin image for criticism! Out of my concern for the health of all participants and their need to release all that dangerous pent up frustration, here's one for everyone to attack:

Dude....Go out for a walk or for an ice cream or something....Maybe take your cat to the park!

It's Sunday....Even you must need a day off from that 25.8 post per day average!

dwood · February 23, 2003 7:24AM

In all honesty, I have found only 3-4 true "experts" here, and several (most?) who know far more than I. However, I think its important to remember when posting a coin here, that for every "expert" we have, there are 30-40 who think they are, and who's opinion should be weighed accordingly. I think this week's certification results from Lori and the 1932-D Washington (soryy, can't recall the owner) clearly demonstrate that:

1. Its impossible to accurately judge a coin without holding it in your hand, and anyone who tells you otherwise is a fool.

And/or

2. Many here who claim to know it all, may have missed a lesson or two

That being said, the "Guess the grade" and "Does this coin suck?" threads have their merit, and can be very fun and educational. However, I don't put much stock in them other than entertainment, and if I ever posted one myself (which I wouldn't) I'd be very careful about putting much faith in the concensus.

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 11:12AM

<< K6AZ

Okay. I find it hard to believe that this comment thread is "slamming" you or your coins. Should I then take your response as "slamming" me back? No. It is pretty much what we both said. >>

Perhaps I may have taken it the wrong way- since most of the time when someone says "avoid like the plague" it is usually a very negative comment. As I said, I came back with a basic explanation, but you never followed up so I did take it as kind of a hit and run. With that said, I usually have a pretty thick skin, and enough confidence in my knowledge of Morgans to let most comments slide.

I don't hold grudges, so no biggie here.

K6AZ · February 23, 2003 11:18AM

<< By the way, those came back from NGC as MS64 and MS65. There was no doubt in my mind about the toning.

Let me say first that I haven't even looked at the coins being discussed, and they might be 100% real.... but being in a slab doesn't PROVE the toning is original or that the coin is completely problem-free. ALL it proves is that the graders who saw it that day found the coin to be "market acceptable". Many of the tone fans here switched to NGC when PCGS started body bagging more of the "questionable" coins. I wonder how many of those now being sold in NGC slabs come with full disclosure? Where's the auction that says "PCGS bagged it as AT but NGC slabbed it anyways"? Hmm? >>

Crito- these coins would have slabbed at PCGS as well as anywhere else. I have dealt with nothing but Morgan Dollars for years, and when I have a coin to look at I can tell with almost absolute certainty whether it is AT or not.

The reason these coins went to NGC is because PCGS turnaround times for all their services is horrible right now.

Oh, and I have never received a PCGS bodybag for artificial color.

Cam40 · February 23, 2003 12:54PM

Hey Russ.Its heatin up in here,and nary a coin has been posted.?!?!!!! lol

I demand full disclosure for any article being presented for sale on these forums.

Thats sometimes the first rule of ethics that gets thrown out the window.

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