LINCOLN MEMORIAL PROOF VARIETY REGISTRY
Steve
Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
After completing the Lincoln wheat proof set registries, I've set my sights on the memorial proofs. I notice that the variety registry requires a couple of dates that seem to me to be going beyond what I consider to be the mainstream varieties. Through the years, I've recognized and accepted (within proofs) the 1960 small date, the 1965,1966 & 1967 SMS, the 1970 small date, the 1979 & 1981 type I and type II, and the 1990 no "S" error. I believe most pricing guides recognize these coins also.
Now I find that I must include the 1971 doubled die and TWO versions of the 1960 large/small date. I can accept the 1971 coin being included because it is in the Red Book now, though not in any other major price guide I found. The two versions of the 1960 small date/ large date combo is a bit much for me.
I looked up this variety in the Wexler/Flynn Authoritative Reference book and find that there are actually THREE versions. There are THREE versions of the 1971S doubled die also. How far should we carry this variety business as far as the PCGS registry goes? I know it is a hot topic with some of you, but let's face it, there are literly HUNDREDS of varieties of Lincoln cents out there. Some can hardly be detected with the naked eye. I am fortunate enough to own the 1990 no "S" and that, to me, is a true error coin. The other varieties listed in the first paragraph maybe should all be included in the basic set for the memorial proof lincolns. Then, I wouldn't care how many were included in the so called variety set. What do you who are working on the Lincoln proof memorials think?
Steve
P.S. I am involved with the PCGS registry solely for the fun of working to complete a collection. I am not involved with trying to collect a pop top collection although I do have my 1992S as a PR70DCAM (had to have one of those so called perfect coins in my collection) I point this out because maybe if you are really competing for top spot in this registry, you may have a different opinion about these type of Lincoln varieties. Again, your opinions are welcome.
Now I find that I must include the 1971 doubled die and TWO versions of the 1960 large/small date. I can accept the 1971 coin being included because it is in the Red Book now, though not in any other major price guide I found. The two versions of the 1960 small date/ large date combo is a bit much for me.
I looked up this variety in the Wexler/Flynn Authoritative Reference book and find that there are actually THREE versions. There are THREE versions of the 1971S doubled die also. How far should we carry this variety business as far as the PCGS registry goes? I know it is a hot topic with some of you, but let's face it, there are literly HUNDREDS of varieties of Lincoln cents out there. Some can hardly be detected with the naked eye. I am fortunate enough to own the 1990 no "S" and that, to me, is a true error coin. The other varieties listed in the first paragraph maybe should all be included in the basic set for the memorial proof lincolns. Then, I wouldn't care how many were included in the so called variety set. What do you who are working on the Lincoln proof memorials think?
Steve
P.S. I am involved with the PCGS registry solely for the fun of working to complete a collection. I am not involved with trying to collect a pop top collection although I do have my 1992S as a PR70DCAM (had to have one of those so called perfect coins in my collection) I point this out because maybe if you are really competing for top spot in this registry, you may have a different opinion about these type of Lincoln varieties. Again, your opinions are welcome.
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Comments
The varieties that you are talking about are the 1971 s DDO and the two 1960 Proof varieties.The 1971 s is a really cool variety.PCGS recognizes the FS 032 and the FS 033.Both can be seen with the naked eye.The 033 is more pronounced and commands a premium.I would say you can contact Pete at L and C coins in California.He presently has two 033's in stock.One is in an ANACS holder and the other is in an NGC holder.I believe he would be willing to try and cross the coins just for the cost of the crossover fee.He is a good guy and very knowledgable.
In your first paragraph you mentioned that you collected the 1960 small date.The varieties of the lg/sm and the sm/lg are really cool and can be seen with the naked eye but a loup (7x) is perfect to see how they were minted.It is alot of fun discovering these mint errors and I believe they are still reasonably priced.Enjoy
Stewart
Thanks for the reply. I have no doubt that these are "cool" coins and I may want to own them one day. My question now is do these all belong in the memorial proof registry, and if so, where do we stop? Maybe a better question is should we redefine what is included in the basic set memorial proof registry? I kinda think that most Lincoln collectors would want the large date, small date varieties and the SMS coins in the basic set. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
I'll be interested to see how lot 1200 fairs. It is a 1970 S DD MS64 RD (not in the proof series).
Rich
Is the 71 s DDO an FS032 or an FS033?
To the best of my knowledge this is your collection being sold in the Superior pre Long Beach sale.Am I correct ?
Stewart
I'm not 100 % sure (Slightly embarased). I had the information written down and now I can't find it.
With regards the collection, this one is mine. I have decided to focus on the 09-58 run with Andy's assistance. The memorials just don't give me the enjoyment that the wheats do.
Regards,
Rich
They are certainly are distinguishable and should be given distinct designations. Check me on this, Stewart, but I believe that the value of FS#-033 is double that of FS#-032.
Both NGC and ANACS recognize and label the two differently, placing the FS number of the slab’s insert. If PCGS doesn't want to use FS numbers, then they should call them DDO #1 and DDO #2.
This is not an isolated case. I am told that another example of PCGS lumping together is with the two distinct 1941 Double Dies, FS#-018 and FS#-018.1. They grade both “Double Die Obverse.”
What’s worse, they do not provide any documentation as to which distinct varieties are included in a category such as the 1971S Proof Double Die Obverse or the 1941 Double Die Obverse. If you are going to lump, at least provide a precise definition of what goes in each category. I raised this with Rick several months ago, got no response, and he finally finessed the issue by going over to a place where recognizable varieties are treated as varieties.
Your right on the price difference for the 033 and 032. It is annoying that PCGS doesn't clarify the specific designation. The same occurs for the 36DD, 44D/S and a few others, just lumped together. I can imagine surprise of someone buying these varieities and then realized they paid too much for a Type II when they thought they were getting a Type I.
Rich
Getting back to the point I'm trying to make about the registry and varieties, I know that many of you actively collect these varieties and there should be a place in the registry for them. I also know that many of you collect the so called basic sets BUT also include some major varieties with them. I fall into this group. I feel that if we could get a consensus for a basic set which included the major recognized varieties, then we could have another varieties only registry which could be very all inclusive.
As an example, with the circulated Lincolns, the major recognized varieties that appear in most price guides are 1922 no D, type II, 1944 D/S (although usually not broken out by type I and type II), 1955 Doubled Die and the various Memorials we all know like the 1972, 1983, 1984 and 1995 Doubled Dies, the small date/large date versions, etc. Why shouldn't all these be considered part of the BASIC set of Lincons for the Registry? Would any true Lincoln collector believe he has a complete Lincoln set without the 1922 no D or the 1955 Doubled Die? That is not to say that the 1909 S over Horizontal S or the 1936 Doubled Die are not also collectable. It is just that they are not CURRENTLY recognized by many Lincoln collectors as being major varieties. My point is to satisfy what I believe to be the majority of collectors who collect both regular and major varieties and would like to see a registry that accomodates them while at the same time recognizing others who enjoy the hunt for the many unusual varieties that get discovered. What I guess I'm not recognizing is those of you who ONLY collect regular issue sets and do not want to recognize or collect ANY varieties in the Registry.
Long winded, but comments are appreciated. Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Rich
here is the "IN GOD WE" part
I believe the IN is the most dramatic (clearist from this picture) part for seperation
I don't think we've ever met but I'm the most fanatical lincoln Cent collector next to Gerry.I think I can answer a few of your questions.First off the 1944 D/S is not sepwrated into type 1 and type 2 because PCGS does not recognize type 2.Type 2 1944 D/S is certified as a 1944 D.The reason being is I believe it doesn't have any value.A type 1 in ms 65 red is probably worth say $5,000 plus.Atype 2 in ms 65 red is worth say $50.
The same holds true for the 1922 no d strong reverse or type 2.
Most collectors today will only collect this variety.This is probably why PCGS will not recognize 1922 weak D and the 1922 no D weak reverse.
Rich- It appears that your 1971 s ddo is an fs 033.It seems the policy of PCGS in recognizing varieties in Lincoln cents is they recognize only the strongest type.For example in the 1936 DDO even though they certify with different PCGS #'s the only variety in the set registry is the type 1.This is also because type 1 is worth more than double type 2 and 20 x type 3.
Gerry - I have the same questions regarding the 1971 s 033 and the 032.Do you have any sales statistics regarding the difference
in auction prices between the 032 and the 033?Would you like to see only one variety recognized?
Stewart
Gerr
Try Cert E2723.45/40014097
It is a Type 2 44D/S I pulled out of a bag of old wheats. The certification ID states it is a Type II, however it is an error and registers as a 44D as you mentioned in your post. Even the insert on the slab states its a D/S not a plain D. Some quirk in the database David should address one way or the other.
Rich
I haven't met you but, believe me, your reputation has been long lasting. I heard about you thru the publication of the third edition of the Standard Guide to the Lincoln Cent by Sol Taylor in 1992. Your collection (at that time) is listed in detail on pages 263-266. My contribution appears on pages 283-285.
Very interesting to learn about how PCGS has handled the 1944 D/S types. I do believe that PCGS does slab the 1922 type I and type III as coins 37A and 37C in the 14 series.
Unfortunately or maybe fortunately, I'm not from Long Island. I live in Connecticut. Lots of Steve's on these boards.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry