My take on the aswimmer topic! **Take A Look**

CThomas

I've been reading all the threads on the AT issue and espically on aswimmer! It's all been very interesting! I want to just clarify that I am in no way an expert on this issue and am not judging anyone. I am however pretty good a doing my homework and this is what I've come up with. You be the judge!

I'll let you judge with these pictures. Let me know what you think!

First we have aswimmer as an eBay winner.

Notice the line going up the cheek and the gouge at the neck!

Next we have aswimmer as an eBay seller.

Notice the line going up the cheek and the gouge at the neck!

Like I said eariler I am not an expert but I do know that AT or real toning can hide certain flaws in a coin, but it can't hide everything.

I am not accusing aswimmer of anything I just wanted to offer this to the experts as a comparison and would like to know what everyone else thought!

I'm Out

Chris

FatMan

Chris

I never post to these type of threads but I must say I do read them.

Your little investigation has certainly opened my eyes.

Well, now I will never be able to say again that I never post to this type of thread.

K6AZ

Bwuhahahahah! Did I hear someone say something in the other thread about a smoking gun! Thank you CThomas, I was so busy today responding to posts I neglected to compare his bidding with his selling, which I planned to do. But you saved me the work.

This coin is unquestionably the same coin in both auctions, and is proof positive that Mr. Swimmer is indeed an AT coin doctor. Wanted a smoking gun folks? Here it is! Try to dispute this!

stman

And I was just starting to feel bad and thought maybe I should believe the Grandfather theory.
BTW, I usually don't post to these threads either, but couldn't hold back on this one and the other one.

sinin1

Those are not the same coins - I wish I new how to put pictures up side by side like some of the other CU masters but I do not. The reeding mark goes down alot farther on the (by your implication) pre-AT dollar to the bottom of the chin - the angle of this reeding mark is also a little different. They are similar, but not the same ( I think - but both auctions take awhile to load, and toggling back and forth, ....)

RegistryCoin

They look strangely similar to me.

stujoe

Look at the reverses and match up the marks. It is much easier to do. Look especially at the star right after the R in dollar and check that mark. While the lighting is a little different that one looks very much the same to me. Just my opinion, of course.

Edited to add: I also see other marks that seem the same to me also on the reverse.

K6AZ

Yes they are the same coins, absolutely no question about it. If others can't convince you, I will be happy to make a composite for you.

ASwimmer

you guys would find somehting to crucify me if its the last thing you do. They are not the same coin , they can't possibly be. It could not, would not, happen.

this is really a no win deal when you have mindsets already made up

aeast236

coins have "fingerprints"; no two are the same. That being said....those look like the exact same coin.
Interesting the same bagmarks show up on two "different" coins.
While I appreciate aswimmer defending himself, at some point you have to ask yourself if this guy is kidding;
are you?
I find nothing funny about it.
-Aaron

dakra

Well yeah, any Morgan could have a nick on the neck
but what about those three dots on the reverse between the star and the "O" in "One"
and the scratch above the star between "America" and "Dollar".

They must be twins with the same birth marks, huh?

-Dave

maddox

Hum, I wonder if the buyer of Mr. swimmers auction would find this interesting

dakra

Thank you for bringing the truth to light CThomas!

-Dave

K6AZ

Someone wanted a composite, here it is. Because the lighting and camera angles are different, you really have to pay attention. The easiest signpost here is the mark above the star between AMERICA and DOLLAR. There are many others, but I am tired. The mark to the right of the eagle may look different at first, but if you really look closely, you will see these are the same coin. Pay particular attention to the marks just above the eagle's head.

maddox

I find the tiny cluster of 5 pits above the "We" more than enough, what are the chances, maybe a couple in a million of this happening to the same coin.

IrishMike

If that isn't the same coin, they are twins. Someone just got busted, good job.

northcoin

Come on guys, that's not fair to aswimmer. Stringrayvetteman just happens to be the executor of his grandfather's estate and striknggrayvetteman was using silver and white film instead of color film in his camera when he took the photos of the 1882-s that aswimmer bought.

northcoin

This post has absolutely nothing to do with anything on this board but the definition of a pathological liar is one who believes his own lies.

northcoin

OK it looks like there is probable cause. Anyone in San Francisco going to get a search warrant Monday morning to have the authorities pay a visit?

Gilbert

Just for the record, and another pair of eyes (VAM eyes), those two images in the composite do not appear to be the same reverse. Why, there are marks above IGWT in the left image not in the right; there are hairlines above IGWT in the right image not on the left; and unless it has something to do with your copying and cropping abilities the the eagle's beack looks rounded on the left and blunt on the right. If that isn't convincing, just take a look at the junction between the back of the eagle's head and left wing; these are two different varieties.

None of this speaks to what type of seller this person is, only, if you are relying on this "comparison," don't.


edited in response to the following posts:

I admit the obverses are strikingly similar, and trying to flip back and forth and compare was, unsatisfying; however, for me three things stand out: 1) I am by no means trying to vouch for the seller of these coins 2) there is no doubt the reverses are NOT the same 3) I wouldn't purchase either coin

northcoin

Gilbert, I acknowledge your expertise, but did you take a look at the obverse? Swimmer is going to need an expert witness before this is over so maybe you can help him out. I usually pay $500 an hour for the experts I hire for my clients.

IrishMike

I can make a coin look different by tilting it or changing the light angle Gilbert, what I haven't been able to do is create the same marks. the mark above the star next to dollar is identical.

K6AZ

You have a point gilbert, these reverses are different. I did not notice them, but as you know I am not a VAM man. I will have to look at the obverses again. Thanks for pointing this out.

LucyBop

I sorta see what Gilbert is saying but I wonder if the angle of the images as well as the at maybe hides some of the marks above in God We Trust... When I consider the two big hits that are present on the reverse as well as the gash running up the cheek on the obverse... I think it really stretches credulity to believe that two coins with some of the exact same distractions are not the same coin. It would be extremely remarkable to me if these are indeed different coins.

K6AZ

I don't know. I see what Gilbert is saying, but that mark by the star on the reverse, plus the reed marks on the cheek on the obverse are just too coinicidental to me. I'm tired, been up all night making sure our pipes don't freeze. I will come back at it with a fresh set of eyes tomorrow.

In any event, I still don't doubt for a minute this guy is an AT coin doctor.

shylock

The dark toning of the supposed "after" image covers many marks, but it's uncanny how many hallmarks show up on both obverses. If this is what it appears to be I'm amazed at the turn around time, like a 24 hour photo service. Link

DrewU

Everyone that can, please save a copy of all 4 pictures involved to your hard drive from the auction itself. It will not be there after the auction ends. Despite his claims of being an "open-book" and a beacon of integrity, there is a reason this guy runs 3-day auctions and doesn't leave the photos up after the auctions are over. I've never owned my own computer company, so I may lack Mr. Swimmer's technical expertise, but I do know how to keep pictures of my auctions up for months after they have closed, and it's not very difficult. There is also a reason why some of you may be having trouble declaring with absolute certainty that the coins are indeed the same. I may elaborate more later, but please save a copy of this image if you can. I'm not sure if anyone else has found this in the sea of circumstantial evidence but here is another item that some might find interesting:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=20795&item=2080939794

I would encourage everyone to take a thorough look over his buying history and selling history, and make up your own mind about this.

Are there any statisticians on the board? I was just wondering hypothetically say there were 10 million coins of a certain date minted, of these an estimated 1 million survive in UNC condition. Each of these coins have random patterns of bagmarks and abrasions. What would be the chances of two individual coins having bagmarks of exactly the same size, shape and depth in over distinct 10 places. Now what would be the chances that 120 years after the coins were minted, and 40 years since most government hoard coins were dispersed that these amazing twin coins would find themselves in the same place at the same time. What are the chances that one collector would buy the long-lost twin, only to unknowingly sell it's ill fated toned brother just over a week later? And on a completely unrelated note, why on earth would you buy a college student a hotplate for 55 bucks, when you can buy a brand new microwave for signifigantly less. Can anyone name one advantage that a hotplate has over a microwave if your intent is to warm up food?

DrewU

Does the obverse field in the Swimmer picture look kinda fuzzy to anyone else? I can't really tell now if the coins are the same because the chatter is so clear in the other picture. I now think that the coins must be different.

dwood

Those are NOT the same reverse. No question about it.

Throw him in water. Does he sink? Or float?

LucyBop

<< <i>Are there any statisticians on the board? I was just wondering hypothetically say there were 10 million coins of a certain date minted, of these an estimated 1 million survive in UNC condition. Each of these coins have random patterns of bagmarks and abrasions. What would be the chances of two individual coins having bagmarks of exactly the same size, shape and depth in over distinct 10 places. Now what would be the chances that 120 years after the coins were minted, and 40 years since most government hoard coins were dispersed that these amazing twin coins would find themselves in the same place at the same time. What are the chances that one collector would buy the long-lost twin, only to unknowingly sell it's ill fated toned brother just over a week later? And on a completely unrelated note, why on earth would you buy a college student a hotplate for 55 bucks, when you can buy a brand new microwave for signifigantly less. Can anyone name one advantage that a hotplate has over a microwave if your intent is to warm up food?
>>



Very interesting...... I often had to deal with statisticians to anaylize all my data prior to bring a Furnace up to production.. One I know well and may have to bring this scenerio up with him. I suspect he'll tell me I have a better chance of winning the lottery...

Gilbert pointed some things out, and I am curious to hear what some of the other Mogan die varietie experts have to say.... I believe
it to be the same coin but my knowledge of the many varieties of Morgans is greatly lacking...

LucyBop

<< <i>Those are NOT the same reverse. No question about it. >>



Gilbert listed his reason, please explain why you also feel this way.....

DrewU

I'm a bit of an insomniac, and I'm in kind of an inquisitive mood, so please accept my apologies for the multiple posts.

Hypothetical question for the lawyers on the forum: If it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the two images are in fact of the same coin, and was knowingly and intentionally fraudulently represented by the seller would that be "actionable"? (That is the word you use isn't it?)

What about if it could be proven with merely a preponderance of evidence? Would an individual have legal recourse?

dwood

Lucy,
Look at the beak. That's as far as you have to go to see these are not the same reverse. Strikingly similar, statistically notable, and unquestionably a coincidence. Two different varieties.

dwood

I'm not a lawyer Drue, but you're going right at the heart of what has me upset. I think the scenario you describe IS actionable. But aswimmer did NOT do that. He did NOT have "genuine" in his descriptions before the email harrasssment started (evidently, he added it as a reaction). I read, then re-read his listings yesterday and could see NOWHERE where he had portrayed the coins to be "genuine." It appeared to me that the story of his grandfather's collection lead some to assume he was saying they were genuine, but he never actually did it.

I think labeling it "genuine" would be actionable if there is an accepted definition of "genuine." (which, the more I think about it, I don't believe there is pertaining to a coin and its condition).

LucyBop

Yes, the beak does appear different, just as Gilbert pointed out..... But I am wondering if the angle or slightly different rotation of the pic could cause this? There seems to be more things these coins have in common aside from the beak.... I am not saying you guy are wrong... this just blows me away that 2 coins can have very similar defects............

dwood

Actually, I don't think its as improbable as we're thinking. When you think of it in a slightly different manner, it can seem more improbable that you don't see this more often. Follow me:

Coins are minted to EXACT specifications, with almost IDENTICAL features and devices (same size reeds, with the same displacement. Same size "open fields" in the same locations, etc...)

Coins are dropped from the exact same height into bags of the exact same size and organic composition.

Coins all weigh relatively the same.

Number of coins in a bag is identical.

You could go on for days with the "fixed" or similarly negligible factors.

I agree it is not seen commonly, but I'm not so sure that statistically it is as slight as we're implying. Still the coins are amazingly similar.

DrewU

I think the chances of guessing 6 out of 52 numbers is around 1 in 22 million (State Lottery). Based on the surface area of a morgan dollar I would imagine that having the exact same mark in around 15 places out out thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands possible placements would be signifigantly more than that. Adding additional variables of size and shape would seem make the scenerio even more statistically unlikely. Might this be the work of some sort of divine force? Maybe it all means something. Does anyone see the baby Jesus in the pattern of obverse bagmarks?

dwood

Or Elvis?

shylock

When I first compared them I was certain they couldn't be the same, but have come full circle. If toning was applied much of the chatter/contact would no longer reflect light or draw shadow the same way, appearing more as dark marks in the image. Plus, they're lighted differently. That can easily create illusions such as the beak looking shorter if the light comes from a sharp angle, shadowing the tip.

I don't know Morgans, but I've learned one of the pratfalls of comparing Indian cents is confusing imperfections passed on from the die pair with post-strike marks. Some dates show the same marks as inherited from the die. I'll leave it to a Morgan expert to tell me if the marks I noted on the 1882 obverses are those types of inherited traits or unique hallmarks to this coin.

DrewU

Speaking of religion, Mr. Swimmer probably typed several pages on this forum bemoaning his persecution at the hands of AT toning vigilantes. These public statements might help determine if his intent was to knowing commit a fraudulent action regardless of the language used in his auction write up.
He could always go back and edit his posts, but there is a possibility that PCGS keeps records of all edited posts to protect themselves.

LucyBop

Not that this proves a thing but I currently have several friends here at my computer and we all think this is the same coin... We believe the beak differences to be due to the angle/lighting/rotation/after effects of a heated oven?........... And believe it or not, I haven't had any margaritas tonight, however, after staring at this coin, I need a pitcher...

DrewU

Here's another hypothetial question for Numismatists. If you were going to AT a bunch of coins and sell them on ebay, how would you prepare for the inevitable backlash from experienced collectors who might realize the potential damage that you would possibly be causing to the hobby that so many find enjoyment in? If you were making thousands of dollars a month, would you prepare some sort of contingency plan in order to protect all of the profit you were making at the hands of novice collectors? Would you go as far as to create an alter-ego? If you registered for the forum and made a bunch of statements as your alter-ego, would you have the forethought to make sure the email address you registered under was completely untraceable to you? If these statements could be traced back to you, would you have had the forethought to fully research the possible ramifications of these actions?

DrewU

I'll be interested to see the opinions of the other board members. As people WAKE UP this morning, I wonder what they will think of this new information.

northcoin

Anyone waking up and following this thread will want to also explore the "Threatening Emails from Seller" thread as well. The two should actually be joined. A point noted on the other thread in response to a question here is with regard to whether Clintonesque language in the seller's ebay ad protects him from fraud. The ultlimate answer to that question should be for a grand jury to determine since there appears to be probable cause at this point. However, the fact that some of his auctions say "genuine" and others don't is not going to be of a lot of help since he claims within his Ebay auction statements that he is giving "full disclosure" in all of his auctions.

tsacch

Take a look at the chemicals he is buying. Ammonium Fluoride - 104gm - Lab Chemicals
Item # 3204391197
Ammonium Sulfate - 500gm - Lab Chemicals
Item # 3204391225

Hexadecyltrimethylammonium Bromide - 109gm
Item # 3204391468

POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE, LAB / PHOTO CHEMICAL


photo chemicals????????????????????? Or AT chems,,,,,

LucyBop

tsacch, what are you really trying to say?

eagle7

Two things make me lean to the side of believing this is one and the same coin. Number one. Coin aswimmer bought was touted as a "PL". Now the one he is selling is a reverse "dmpl". Whatever the two individuals put on it"Pl or DMPL" that narrows the pool of coins to several hundred thousand, even if its only an SPL (most likely). Were talking 82-S here. Two. The reeding marks are much tougher to find the same. Most coins have bag marks in the same places. That would not sway me. But the reeding marks, those are never the same on two totally different coins. They cannot be altered or messed with. Now the coin can be angled slightly and some can disapper in the lighting or toning but I have never seen reeding marks so similar on two coins. One last piece of anecdotal evidence as to the veracity of mr swimmers statement's about his grandfathers collection and the size of it. If it was such a nice large collection, why does he have to buy a pukey 82-S in 62pl (raw) and then go and sell some of his grandfathers nice stuff. This man is obviously a merchant, a buyer and a seller. Any of his embellishments should be taken in that context only!

tsacch

Take a look at the chemicals he is buying. Ammonium Fluoride - 104gm - Lab Chemicals
Item # 3204391197
Ammonium Sulfate - 500gm - Lab Chemicals
Item # 3204391225

Hexadecyltrimethylammonium Bromide - 109gm
Item # 3204391468

POTASSIUM PERMANGANATE, LAB / PHOTO CHEMICAL


photo chemicals????????????????????? Or AT chems,,,,,

AT AT AT AT AT AT AT AT.....LUCY.......I EDITED FOR MY OVERLY ANXIOUS RESPONSE. BUT ITS AT X 100

shylock

A closer look at the cheeks & profile:

northcoin

Chemicals and home labs? What happened to simply baking coins in a potato or storing them in the gasoline tank? potato toning

dwood

Looking at Shylock's photos, it appears to me that as you get closer to the folds of the back of the eyelid, the "AT" example actually has more pronounced bag marks? And the bagmasrks on the "AT" example appear OUTSIDE of the folds of the eylid, while the "RAW" examples are inside it.

So is it the same coin? Or did this guy also hide the old bagmarks, create a new set, then cook it all up on his hot plate with the new chemistry kit?

We can't even agree on whether or not 2 photos are of the same coin or different coins. Yet we're able to immediately judge this guy's entire inventory as "100% AT" without ever touching a single sample?

CU is truly a magical place!