Hey PSA, Here Is The Next Grading Special I Want!
Mefer
Posts: 1,162 ✭✭✭
This is a self serving post to a large degree, but it will probably make sense for a lot of collectors and set registry participants. On with the story.....
I am a married man with three young children. As such, I do not have the biggest collecting budget in the world. I try to self support my collecting habit by selling my duplicates and cards I do not want. Of course, it is never a break even proposition. I still buy more in cards than I sell.
Presently, my focus is on my 1971 Topps baseball set. I am attempting to put together a set in PSA 7 or better condition. If you look me up on the registry, you will find me at about 5,658. You will never find my set at the top; my budget will never allow for it.
I am sure there are many other collectors out there just like me. We are attempting to put together a PSA graded set (one that will most likely never be in the top ten), have a limited budget, but enjoy participating. I would hope PSA would direct a grading special towards us.
What I have in mind would be something like this. First, you have to have a registered set. Second, that set has to be over 10% complete. If these first two criteria are met, you qualify for the special- $5.00 a card (make it $4.00, even better), minimum of 25, for the qualifying set or sets.
The foregoing seems to make sense. It would seem PSA would make money off of such a special considering, I believe, there are many collectors just like me who would use, and appreciate, such an offer. In my case, I would not mind paying a $5.00 grading fee a card in order to receive a PSA 7 common from 1971 Topps. Given the price of the PSA 7 1971 Topps commons (roughly $5.00 to $15.00 depending upon the series and whether it is a short print), I could handle such an out lay. In my case, I could literally see myself running through 100 to 200 cards in such a special (and wiping out a large part of my collecting budget in a six month period of time along the way, but worth it).
There would also be some intrinsic satisfaction in that PSA would recognize my efforts. Time and time again PSA and us collectors applaud someones high dollar, PSA 9 or better set (rightfully so). The PSA registry awards are geared towards these types of sets. However, like most things, it is typically us "grunts" in the trenches that make things work. In this case, and from my unscientific review, there seems to be a large number of collectors like me participitating. If we all went away, I believe the registry would too. Again, a special like the foregoing would be a nice recognition of my efforts (I need to feel the love sometimes....).
Thank you PSA, I hope you listent to my request. Well, like Forrest Gump, "that is all I have to say about that."
I am a married man with three young children. As such, I do not have the biggest collecting budget in the world. I try to self support my collecting habit by selling my duplicates and cards I do not want. Of course, it is never a break even proposition. I still buy more in cards than I sell.
Presently, my focus is on my 1971 Topps baseball set. I am attempting to put together a set in PSA 7 or better condition. If you look me up on the registry, you will find me at about 5,658. You will never find my set at the top; my budget will never allow for it.
I am sure there are many other collectors out there just like me. We are attempting to put together a PSA graded set (one that will most likely never be in the top ten), have a limited budget, but enjoy participating. I would hope PSA would direct a grading special towards us.
What I have in mind would be something like this. First, you have to have a registered set. Second, that set has to be over 10% complete. If these first two criteria are met, you qualify for the special- $5.00 a card (make it $4.00, even better), minimum of 25, for the qualifying set or sets.
The foregoing seems to make sense. It would seem PSA would make money off of such a special considering, I believe, there are many collectors just like me who would use, and appreciate, such an offer. In my case, I would not mind paying a $5.00 grading fee a card in order to receive a PSA 7 common from 1971 Topps. Given the price of the PSA 7 1971 Topps commons (roughly $5.00 to $15.00 depending upon the series and whether it is a short print), I could handle such an out lay. In my case, I could literally see myself running through 100 to 200 cards in such a special (and wiping out a large part of my collecting budget in a six month period of time along the way, but worth it).
There would also be some intrinsic satisfaction in that PSA would recognize my efforts. Time and time again PSA and us collectors applaud someones high dollar, PSA 9 or better set (rightfully so). The PSA registry awards are geared towards these types of sets. However, like most things, it is typically us "grunts" in the trenches that make things work. In this case, and from my unscientific review, there seems to be a large number of collectors like me participitating. If we all went away, I believe the registry would too. Again, a special like the foregoing would be a nice recognition of my efforts (I need to feel the love sometimes....).
Thank you PSA, I hope you listent to my request. Well, like Forrest Gump, "that is all I have to say about that."
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Comments
I am a married guy with three kids and I like driving fast cars. I don't have the biggest budget in the world and usually when I get a new car I have to trade the other in as part of the deal.
I am sure that there are a ton of other guys like me. So, here's what I have in mind.
First: Register with the Ferrari dealership to let them know that you're serious. List all of the Ferrari items that you own ( t-shirt, key chain, hat, etc) You have to own at least three items to get this deal.
Second: If you meet the first criteria, Ferrari lets you drive one of their cars for lease terms of $6,000/year (making it more affordable so more of the guys like me can drive a Ferrari)
The foregoing seems to make sense. It would seem that Ferrari could make money off of this because they will add a ton of volume. After all, it's only metal and other inexpensive raw materials. I honestly believe that a lot of guys like me would appreciate such an offer. Given the market value of sportscars (roughly $5,000/year), I could certainly afford to pay the $6,000/year. Hell, I would probably do it for a number of years and encourage others to do the same.
There would also be some intrinsic satisfaction in that Ferrari would recognize my efforts. Time and time again the industry applauds high profile race car drivers (rightfully so). The racing awards are geared towards these types of accomplishments. However, like most things, it is typically us "grunts" in the trenches that make things work. In this case, and from my unscientific review, there seems to be a large number of drivers like me. If we all went away, I believe the sportscar industry would too. Again, a special like the foregoing would be a nice recognition of my efforts (I need to feel the love sometimes....).
Well, thanks for listening Ferrari.
Forrest Gump
My thoughts exactly
Why not make it $3 a card, PSA still makes lots of $$ right ?
I can't justify the 7.00/card for the current special. I think my economic cut off is 6.00/card.....I just can't send a card out for more than that unless I had some urgent need, which I don't.
-Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy the comedy here.
So, while I see the humor in the "Ferrari" scenario, I do think what I am saying here makes sense financially.
You're out of line. Mefer makes a good point. Comparing business models of Ferraris and PSA is apples to oranges, pal. Sounds like the 'JoeStalin-twisted-logic' routine.
My guess is you checked the following:
single
no kids
lost your W-2's so "I don't have to pay any stinking taxes"
BOTR
Granted, I would love to see the prices back at the $5.00 mark (which I'm certain is where the big dealers get theirs priced regularly), but absent some change in the current status of the card world, the star cards and expensive vintage will likely never be back down to that price. I just don't see the volume of registry submissions justifying the submission price cuts. Only someone else from PSA can tell us if the registry special submission rate has dropped off during the course of these various submissions.
Besides, I don't think Mefer's suggestion is ridiculous at all. Perhaps PSA can afford to do such a thing, perhaps not. But it certainly doesn't hurt to tell them who their customers are and what they can afford.
Mefer, your response to Patton was most gracious, lots better than I would have done.
I don't post much, but this irked me and I wanted to respond. As I said, I've seen a little too much of this recently.
Mike
Vintage Football Card Gallery
The cost of grading cards has come down over the past 18-36 months...WAY DOWN! Service levels have gone up ... WAY UP! So let's just say that PSA established a permanent $5/card price. 18 - 36 months later we would have people on this very board screaming for $4 per card. Additionally, we would also have these same people screaming about this card being misgraded or people linking auctions of cards they thought PSA misgraded. I can hear the screams of people about "How can three graders have agreed on this grade?"
There's a cost to delivering a quality service. If you want your cards consistently graded for $5, you can send them to PRO or some other second rate outfit. My guess is that you won't: because those grades are meaningless and you won't be able to resell the cards after they're graded.
If you're looking for someone to agree with your point of view on every topic: Call you mom!
If you can't handle points of view other than your own: Maybe you shouldn't post on a public message board!
BTW - Mefer knows that my example was taking his logic to an extreme and took it the right way. Thank goodness everyone isn't so thin skinned as BOTR and nearmint.
Charging more for stars is a pain.
(Registry members only!...)
Submit 1-5 cards.........$8.00 a card.
Submit 6-25 cards........$7.00 a card.
Submit 26-50 cards......$6.00 a card.
Submit 51-100 cards....$5.00 a card.
Submit 101-500 cards..$4.75 a card.
Submit 500- or more....$4.50 a card.
Works for me!!!
You got a few really high end or special cards cards? $8.00 isn't going to kill you. PSA still has the overhead.
You have a ton of cards (commons) say, 1000? get them graded for $4500.00. I'm sure PSA would love the business.
Another thought is a "same set" special. (again Registry members only!..)
Submit a minimum of say 100 cards from the same set (example: just 19xx Topps baseball OR just 19xx Fleer basketball...) Call it $5.00 each. I'm also sure PSA would rather grade a bunch of cards that are similar, all at the same time.
Hmmmm.
What do you all think?
Larry
PS...Before everybody does all the math...the numbers above are just a starting point for dialog. Please don't grill me up too much...ha'...
email....emards4457@msn.com
CHEERS!!
Charging more for stars is a pain. >>
SGC really needs submissions at this point -- they can use all the help they can get for post-war cards, especially now that Derek is out of the picture.
Yes, I am sure that major submitters do not pay $5/card. DSLSports is included. But if you are submitting thousands upon thousands of cards a year, it probably benefits both parties to offer an attractive pricing option.
I just find it concerning that PSA is taking slack for its pricing specials. People get one thing, and then keep that as an expectation for all the future. PSA charges LESS today than ever before -- with great specials to boot. You can either a) wait for another special or b) suck it up and pay the lower price. 99.9% of the collectors I know are on a budget -- some of us more than others. If you can't afford the grading -- wait for a special or buy your modern PSA 7's for the grading price or less on Ebay. If there's one thing that I can accurately predict for the future, it is this: 1970+ commons will continue to get PSA-graded by the THOUSANDS, whether or not Joe Q. SmallCollector sends them in. To the extent that dealers make mistakes (all do), PSA 7's will get graded, and you will be able to find them on Ebay for less than the grading fee for many different card issues.
I think there are literally tons of vintage near mint out there, as I have about a quarter ton myself. But, because I have now developed somewhat of a more disciplined eye as far as high grade examples, I find I will only submit a card if I truly feel it's a solid 8 or 9. I have books and stacks full of extremely nice near mint cards, but won't sumbit them because the price would be prohibitive according to potential resale value.
Mefer makes a valid point. I think there is still oceans of cash to be made on these hoards of Near Mints out there by PSA if they would develop a pricing plan to get some of these cards on their way to Newport Beach.
"There's no crying in baseball card set building."
My, my, the natives are getting restless!
Listen up, people. I began submitting cards three years ago. The price was $8 per common, more for stars and more for faster turnaround. PSA briefly (AND I MEAN BREIFLY) took it up to $10 per common. They got lonely in a hurry. Mail stopped coming. They dropped it back to $8. Then $7 followed soon thereafter, with a waiving of the star card "premium."
Another collector/submitter/board member inquired about how to get "dealer" rates. He was told to submit 1000 cards for a bulk rate of $6. He didn't have 1000 cards, so we teamed up. Sent in 1100. As I recall, the grades were surprisingly favorable and the turnaround was as good as before.
Then the 100-card $6. Registry special came along.
Well, at the Labor Day show in SF, I lugged 200 cards out there for the $6 special. While I was there, the baseball strike was settled and on Friday submissions were $5 for a NO-STRIKE special. I turned in my 200, shopped for another 100 and stayed up all night sleeving cards and filling out another $5 invoice. When I took them in on Saturday, I was told the $5 special was not for vintage, but modern only. They did however, honor all invoices turned in on Friday at $5.
For Super Bowl weekend, they offered another $5 special, including vintage. The only hitch? Had to be submitted in person at the NFL Experience.
Well, what do you think I did?
Darn tootin'.
I jumped on a plane, flew out on a Saturday morning, carrying over 800 cards with me, 500 of which was 1961 Topps Baseball. Fought the crowds, heat, no time for food, etc. to drop off the cards and barely make it back to the airport to catch the plane back. Fortunately for me, Texans' Rookie QB David Carr was on the same plane (guess he didn't want to stay for the Super Bowl either) and I got his autograph.
That's the good news.
The bad news just got posted this week. Actually, I made some significant progress on a couple sets I'm trying to wrap up, but that last 3-10% is apparently going to be brutal. My 1961 cards were a near disaster. I got 7% PSA 5/min.size/miscut, 37% PSA 6, 44% PSA 7 and 11% PSA 8. But the one I can't wait to see is the PSA 1 Ozzie Virgil card they dropped on me. The first package just arrived. There is a PSA 5 #528-Ramos and a PSA 8 #348-Boros that are fraternal twins. The Ramos even has better eye appeal, but got the lower grade. I've scrutinized the Ramos and don't find the wrinkle/crease or whatever it is the grader saw.
I've told more than one person in the last 24 hours, I didn't submit any PSA 1 candidates. In fact, I submitted a very consistent, bell curve type of set. Mainly 8's with an expected tail of 7's and 9's.
The moral of the story? Large submissions at low prices don't always (rarely) get special treatment. I think $7 is fair if the grades are consistent with the cards I already have. If not, I won't pay $1 per card to get any more graded.
Sure we'd all like the grading fees to be lowered, but PSA must maintain some profit margin in order to exist. If PSA doesn't make it financially, we (as the end users of their product) will suffer for it. When discussing costs of grading cards, you have to take into account the paid employees at PSA who do all of the "behind the scenes" work - sales, marketing, data entry, customer service, website development, IT, secretarial, janitorial, etc. - the list goes on and on. Sure, maybe it does only cost a fraction of a dollar in direct labor to grade a single card, but what about all of these other overhead costs?
PSA have proven to me, time and time again, that their customer service is top notch and their grading services are unequalled. At $6-$7 a card, I'll be happy to submit whenever I can afford to do it.
BTW, I just got an email from PSA yesterday with an authorization code for 5 free grades because one of my registry sets went over 75% completion!
Keep everything the way it is. The specials just make it all that much better when they apply to the cards you're submitting.
JEB.
Regarding PSA's financial viability, a look at their recent financials give no cause for concern. The parent company, Collectors Universe, continues to report positive progress (but not positive earnings). They have a current ratio (current assets to current liabilities) of about 4:1. Of $35MM in assets, over $5MM is in cash and another $12MM is in receivables (usually convertible into cash within a year).
Cash flow is positive, about $800k per quarter except for 9/30/02 (could've been a blip).
Quarterly revenues and gross profit is very consistent and G&A expense is gradually decreasing. The CEO apparently understands the collectibles business and business in general (he's a CPA and CFP, if memory serves me correctly).
Theirs is a very labor intensive business, not capital intensive. As such, they're not gonna make tons of money. In a competitive environment with other choices available to collectors, pricing power is limited.
Lowering the grading fees to below break even and "making it up on volume" is the classic punch line to a joke told at CPA conventions.
Then again, sportscard grading could be considered a loss leader. It's probably much smaller than the coin grading and there is probably more growth in the auction business than grading. I know this much: I've been submitting cards for grading for 3 years, but bid in my first Superior Auction in December. Won a few items, including a very large lot of PSA 8 1967's. I bet CU made more margin (15%) on my auction purchase than they did my recent card submission. I just wish I'd have gotten 100% PSA 8 on my invoice like I did on the auction.
It has been noted that PSA pricing for grading has gone down. I agree with this. However, I think there is more too it than just this. When PSA grading began, what you saw predominately graded was star cards of the vintage variety. Given the price of many of these cards graded, it was not a "big deal" to pay $20.00 to $50.00 a card. The submitter would get a great return on his or her investment. During the early days, little if no commons were graded.
Since then, I think we can agree that there has been a large portion of this quality star card vintage material graded (for purposes of this discussion, by vintage I mean 60s or earlier). Of course, with limited supply, common sense would dictate that PSA could not continue charging its past prices and expect to receive the same level of submissions.
In light of this, I think PSA made a smart move in dropping its prices. The drop in prices was close in time to when 70s material started to take off. I therefore believe this assisted in the 70s take off. While the 70s stuff is more plentiful than 60s and earlier material, there will eventually be a slow down on this as well.
Recognizing this, I believe PSA started the set registry to encourage the grading of commons, an untapped market. This was a brilliant and innovative move in my mind. However, because commons are, by nature, less expensive than star card, PSA will have to consider offering lower prices for grading if it wants to see these commons slabbed. Getting back to my case, (which I noted at the outset is self serving
Keep up the set registry specials, PSA. If possible, keep my thoughts in mind!
1) What grading they may do is at a profitable level
2) It doesn't cannibalize their regular (current) business at a higher level
Look, I can tell you guys that honestly, people aren't getting special deals for 100-200 card submissions. I'm not going to disclose what my agreement is, but most people couldn't even consider submitting the numbers I agreed to.
Yeh, the reference to Joestalin was pretty bad I must admit. There's only one clown like that. But instead of ridiculing Mefer's idea, maybe try to see it from someone else's vantage point, even if you may not agree to it in principle. Nobody's asking you to rah rah all that's stated on these boards.
Face it, he made some good points and I would expect others to agree or disagree using sensible, reasonable logic. Ferrari vs PSA was major stretch (although clever in prose), and if you did indeed disagree with his statements, a more practical approach would have been beneficial to all.
Hey, I like to have fun on this board at times with off the cuff stuff, but ya kinda flew in the face of someone making a good observation.
Finally, how many more cards would YOU submit if the price was tiered using a new formula. I know I would!
Saaaalute!!
BOTR
<< <i> I'm not going to disclose what my agreement is, but most people couldn't even consider submitting the numbers I agreed to. >>
You submit alot to PSA? I dont think Ive ever heard you mention that before.
John
Mefer, you are making the argument that you can't grade cards for an additional dollar because because the going price for PSA 7's is near the grading fee. IF you are going to keep these cards for a while, what difference does it make what you can sell them for. IF for $500 you could only grade 80 cards instead of 100, does it really make that much difference? IF you wanted to collect a PSA 6 set, should the price be adjusted for grading to $3?
Actually, I think that George Pattons response was brilliant. HE hit the nail on the head. Can anyone really tell me how Ferraris are different than PSA cards? You don't "have to have" either. Both are luxuries. Mefer's cards are just as nice raw as in a slab.
Finally, realize that the price of graded cards comes down as the price of grading comes down. If grading was $1, then the number of PSA 6's and 7's commons would go up astronomically, and the price would of course come down. So if the grading fee were routinely $5, then the 71 PSA 7's, of which there is a ton of raw out there, would go down an equivalent amount, and people would still gripe that they can't justify paying grading fees with the price they could sell them for.
"There's no crying in baseball card set building."
<< <i>Can anyone really tell me how Ferraris are different than PSA cards? >>
The difference in 'handling' is like night and day!
BOTR
<< <i>..............
<< <i>Can anyone really tell me how Ferraris are different than PSA cards? >>
The difference in 'handling' is like night and day!
BOTR >>
Good One. I can't say that I've handled a Ferrari, though. They have some similarities, though. Both break into many pieces when crashed at 100mph. And both can be addictive!
How was the waiter?
John
If I remember correctly, the Ferrari FX runs about $500,000 and costs Fiat $90,000 to make. The average $22,000 car nets the manufacturer about $1000. Could Fiat sell more Ferrari FX's at $95,000, about the same margin mainstream manufacturers get? Yeah, but not enough to make up for the loss in margin. I'm not even getting into Ferrari's marketing strategy of purposefully making less cars than they could sell, in order to increase demand.
The more PSA cards there are on the market, the more the hobby will accept them, and the more collectors will want their collections slabbed by PSA. PSA has reached the point of critical mass in many sets, where collectors can build a complete set submitted by others, and can do OK on cards they submit themselves. Set registry specials are an attempt to increase the number of sets that have that critical mass.
In short, Ferrari relies on less of their cars being on the road (to an extent, selling one car each year would be bad business), and PSA relies on more of their cards being on the market (to an extent, if every card was slabbed they'd be out of business).
Joe
<< <i>
Set registry specials are an attempt to increase the number of sets that have that critical mass.
wow, that's heavy..........
I wonder if PSA knows what they were trying to do?
Joe
And NO, I'm not having dinner at Chang's............I'm gonna slam my Farrari into a PSA slab and see who wins..............
BOTR
Always looking for 53 Topps Baseball and "stuff"