Has anyone received any WORTHWHILE Upgrades ?
STEWARTBLAYNUMIS
Posts: 2,697 ✭✭✭✭
I have been hearing of dealers going 0 for 45,1 for 57, 0 for 23 etc. etc. etc.
So I don't think I'm living in a vacuum I would like to hear from both dealers AND collectors who have been submitting coins in the past 6 months.Any worthwhile upgrades ? Please don't tell me about modern kennedy's,Sacagawea's,Lincoln Memorials,Roosevelt's etc.
Stewart
0
Comments
I did hear of a really good eye going 2/113 recently - is that what you mean?
Later I cracked out (from PCGS holders) and sent in an 09-S VDB, 11-D, and 23-S and they all upgraded. The 23-S upgraded from PCGS MS63RD to PCGS MS64RD (and it is still a very nice and properly graded 64!!)
I felt like I was understanding fairly well.....what PCGS would grade these Lincolns before I sent them in....and they were all coming back as I expected.
Well.....now lets look at the last 10 months. I sent in a 14-S, 24-S, 25-D, 25-S, 26-D and a 29-D for "Regrade". All were in PCGS holders. Four came back the same grade......and 2 came back body bagged for "color" even though they had been in PCGS holders before I sent them in. I think they are really scared....and rather than grade a coin on its merits....they are taking the easy way out. This means taking the money and running if they have any doubts.
I also sent in the nicest 4 out of 10 NGC MS67RD cents I had between the years 1936 and 1958. None of them crossed over. This makes me 0 for my last 10 (Upgrades and NGC crossovers combined). This was just a few months ago.
Bottom line is I went 8 for 8 (Crossovers from NGC and Upgrades) prior to 10 months ago. In the last 10 months I am Zero for 10!!
Maybe I am not a coin grading EXPERT.......but my eye sight has not detiorated yet......and I know it is not my ability to recognize a nice Lincoln Cent. So what is it?? PCGS has got scared.....and I won't be wasting my money sending them coins......no matter how PQ I think they are....until they start grading consistently with what I know is already out there in PCGS holders. I hate looking at a coin that is almost flawless.....side by side with another coin that isn't as nice....but is in a higher grade. It just doesn't make sense to me.
They won't make any MS67RD's for later Lincolns if the pop is low. They won't do it....even if the coin merits it. That is my opinion based on what I have seen.
I sent in 4 ngc mercs in 68fb all the same date and a pop 5 ngc coin, it is a pop 0 in pcgs
so I own 4 of the 5 ngc coins (if there are really 5) 2 of them should have crossed no problem
one was a liner and the other is at the bottom of the scale. well guess what zero crossed.
I guess we should all wait about 6 months or until they come back to reality (if they ever do)
before we send them anything. I have also heard from several dealers that hardly nothing is
crossing at this time. And I thought things were suppose to improve, maybe that is why the
sets across the street are growing so fast
Tim
Mike
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Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
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How about if we take odds:
I put quarters in a slot machine in Las Vegas
vs.
I spend $5,000 at the PCGS grading booth
I bet I would make a jackpot in Las Vegas sooner than I could get an upgrade for an equivalent sum at PCGS.
One is just luck and the other should be numismatic knowledge
Stewart
I've successfully crossed quite a number of coins over the past several months. In fact just got a small group back today where I hit three out of four (PCGS Invoice # 3030794).
Mike
Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins
*** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
Connecticutt to MS65
Columbia to MS66
New Rochel to MS65
I have had other commemoratives upgrade.
Sequicentennial Half from MS63 to MS64
Vancouver Half from MS64 to MS65
Overland Trail Collection Showcase
Dahlonega Type Set-2008 PCGS Best Exhibited Set
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
So I guess I'll need to take another look and cherrypick the ones that weren't so lucky and send them in with another group.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection
I don't care what excuses they make, that percent number is hog wash! Apparently some is either incompetent or is just playing games!
Don't they get it, they should want to put every nice coin in their holders. It would expand the PCGS set Registries market and the PCGS overall market even further.
Laura Sperber
lsperber1@hotmail.com
www.legendcoin.com
JUST SAY NO TO WANNABES! They lurk and prey on unwitting collectors in chatrooms!
I submitted 5 "worthwhile" seated halves to PCGS at FUN. 2 were cracked out from NGC. They just wouldn't give the grade after two submissions. These were nice original coins. NCS even wanted to dip a beatifully original no motto half that was a technical 64++/67 coin. All for the sake of a dipped out 65 grade. I left it original and sent it to PCGS who wisely graded the coin 65. Both were out of Queller sale and went up a point each at PCGS. Yes, David, PCGS was looser than NGC (this time).
I also sent in 3 older PCGS holdered better date seated halves in MS65 grade (for regrade). Now like TDN, I had paid a fairly sizable premium on 2 of these at auction last June. PCGS graded all 3 of these (seen as a trio) as MS66. I actually felt that 2 of them were no brainer 66's and one was a very high end 65. 2 of them came out of the Pryor sale and are in the top two known for the date. Both were "arrows" type halves. So in one respect I went 5 for 5 on these 2 submissions and am starting to rethink using only NGC. NGC has been very unreliable IMO on toned seated MS material over the past 12 months and it has been very frustrating.
roadrunner
From "expensive" to "priceless" imho. Worthwhile? I believe so!
Commems are fun!
Roadrunner
What about a majority of us who pay a sizeable premium for a coin in a series in which we specialize ? And I can tell you about hundreds of thousands of dollars and perhaps millions of dollars in coins of which considerable premiums were paid.I can tell you that most of these coins will not be sold. THEY MUST UPGRADE
I believe PCGS is not giving the benefit of the situation to the submitter as I've seen sooooo many coins that grade 65.9 and they don't give a 66.Its even worse when one pays a monster premium for a 66.85 and it will not upgrade.
And IMO this is why situations like a 1963 Lincoln cent sells for $39,000.If PCGS graded ten more Proof 70,the coin would not sell for more than $2,000.We will not comment on how accurately the coin was graded.
Stewart
BTW - what liability should fall upon Heritage, who sold the coin with no mention whatsoever about it's current problems?
An NGC 65 is still worth more than a PCGS 64, perhaps you need to go across the street. Of course, these days, once it's in the NGC holder you've got no prayer of it crossing. 27%, and that includes the cross at any grades, is not much of a shot!
I'll never know - I'm done with the stupid game....they will remain in NGC holders as long as I own them.
TDN - I e mailed David Hall about the coin.He saw it before it sold.That coin is one of the lowest low points of numismatics I've watched happen.And all because the coin was a pop 1. Unique !!
stewart
1978-P Ike MS66==>MS66
1880 3CN PR65==>PR65CAM (Sort of an upgrade)
1930 SLQ MS64FH==>MS65FH
Unfortunately, not necessarily. Anyone who's been around moderns long enough can tell you stories of some pretty scary "factory fresh" so-called PR70s. I have no reasonable explanation for some of those coins other than temporary insanity/chemical incapacitation.
Here are my scores:
Upgrade 1 for 4, 1876 20c from PCGS MS62 --> cracked out --> PCGS MS63.
I did try re-grade twice and can't get MS63. May be PCGS did not know how to grade coins that was sent in in the holders.
CrossOver 0 for 4, very nice NGC SLQs. Since these coins are mine so that I might be bias. I believe they are no brianer to cross over or get a point higher.
> Why not crack it out to begin with?
I used to have the same idea as David Hall said in the Q&A section, re-grade has no risk and crack-out is a crap-shooting game. I also believe the coin is a lock to MS63 (not an MS64). I tried re-grade, but I don't know whether the coin went through the grading system or simply re-holder it ..... so that I tried crack-out to prove myself. One shot, it is an eleven.
That Ike was in a PCGS holder when submitted.
The 1880 3CN was not a big deal... it was graded before they gave the CAM designation for older proofs. All you had to do was look at the coin instead of the holder to know it was CAM.
<< <i>How about if we take odds:
I put quarters in a slot machine in Las Vegas vs. I spend $5,000 at the PCGS grading booth
I bet I would make a jackpot in Las Vegas sooner than I could get an upgrade for an equivalent sum at PCGS.
One is just luck and the other should be numismatic knowledge
>>
Stewart: just one suggestion - wouldn't it be better for you to go to Atlantic City - it's so much closer!!!
I know I sent in 5 ave grade peace dollars to anacs and 3 ngc, and they
all crossed no problem
Tim
Coins that don't cross at what I feel are the appropriate grade, I've sent back in for review and gotten the higher grade. This has happened to me 3 times. That burns me! Twice the price to get what should have been given the "first time".
I'm not a big submitter, but it sounds like my experience is within the percentage perameters.
I'm going to be submitting about 10 coins in the next week or so. I'm debating whether to crack them out (some are PCGS, some are NGC) and take what I get. The NGC coins are solid for their respective grades. The PCGS coins include a Morgan that was crossed from an ANACS holder, that should have gotten the next grade the first time.
bruce scher
Stewart, per the above qoute - why not those coins? Some people are a little too arrogant for modern coins, please tell me you are not one of them.
and once a day or week they actually look at a few
so there will always be a couple of people out of hundreds
or thousand's that will get an upgrade
but %27 crossover is bs it is probable about 1 to 2%
on the high grade and cross at same coins,
and no matter what they may say I believe they
are bias against ngc, or so it seems with so many
stories of ngc coins not crossing then being sent in
raw and getting the grade ( sounds and smells a little fishy to me)
the politics needs to stop then maybe there stock would turn around
Tim
Tom Schiera
Datentype - The reason I don't want to hear about modern coins such as Sacagaweas,Roosevelts,Lincoln memorial Proofs is because there is NO liability.Even though a PCGS 1963 Proof 70 Deep Cameo sold for $39,000 and was no better than a 66 Deep Cameo it can be replaced with any one of the Proof 69 D Cameos at virtually no cost to PCGS.As long as PCGS gets so many modern coin submissions they don't have to stretch even one tenth of a point on the classics.
I want PCGS to upgrade a mint state p.q. trade dollar from 64 to 65 and let the submitter sell the coin and earn money because the market place will accept the coin as a 65
Other dealers and collectors who spend between $10,000 and $100,000 a year in grading fees are getyting ZERO (0) upgrades.In Florida at F.U.N. I submitted more than $4,000 worth of submissions and got one upgrade.And I cracked two PCGS coins and got two downgrades.
As far as crossovers are concerned especially NGC coins it seems to me that the graders treat these coins as though they are contaminated. 27% is a pathetic percentage to cross from people who truly want their coins in PCGS holders.Why will a coin cross on its fifth or sixth submission?
And WHEN will PCGS grade ALL crossovers instead of just taking my money and giving me back my coin?
Stewart
My second hobby is cracking out moderns and resubmiiting them raw. recently I had a 66 that turned into an 8 like it should have been in the first place!
and spend more money,
Tim
Crack outs - I just cracked out 3 classic coins Invoice # 3007832
A Proof 64 barber dime ....... it came back artificial color
A ms 64 Barber dime (first generation holder) .....came back ms 62
An 1858 Flyer ms 64 ............ came back A.T.
What can I do ?
Stewart
It would seem to me that if pcgs were to adjust grading standards (again), they would choose a level, a tightness, if you will, near or equivelent to their tightest grading of the past. This level of grading would probably be perceived as the most consistant, in the long run, and would lessen "returns" and regrades.
Also, perhaps pcgs is finally getting a handle on, or taking a position on AT coins, and instead of letting the "questionable" one go through with a grade, they are now "erring on the side of caution" and throwing out any questionable toned coins.
Whatever the case, it seems to be a scary time to try.
My #1 Low Ball Peace Dollar Set
If anyone tells me that the present grading of PCGS is consistent with the standard in which PCGS has graded coins since the last 14 years.........
TextI will challenge you and especially David Hall
Stewart Blay
One of the coins that upgraded has an interesting history. It was a silver Kennedy. The coin would look just fine in an MS67 slab. No one would question it graded as MS67. Long ago I submitted the coin raw and it graded MS66. I stuck it in my safe and a couple years later finally decided to resubmit it. I cracked it and it came back MS65.
Of the 10 that didn't upgrade, I cracked four of them and submitted them raw to NGC. One stayed the same grade, 2 upgraded one grade, and 1 upgraded 2 grades.
I don't crack too many coins any more unless I see essentially zero risk. Too many come back AT. I prefer to buy older holdered coins from name sales that haven't been through the wash yet and played with every which way. I guess that's why old time collections when they come up, bring good prices.
I also cracked out a super cherry $20 LIB PCGS64 that NGC graded 65 at the show. Couldn't sell it for much a premium until it went up in grade. I also tried to cross an MS 67 NGC coin and should have had my forehead stamped "stupid" for even wasting my time. So overall I went 6 for 7 at coins submitted at FUN. Seated material has been my specialty for over 25 years I hope that I have at least an even chance against the "grading machines." I have gravitated away from the smaller dimes and quarters and tried to stick with the bigger halves.....both because everyone tends to like bigger coins, and grading them is probably easier.
AT coins are the biggest challenges in the seated area as not too many coins are yet fully doctored over.....at least not from what I've seen. One month I had nearly every seated coin I sent in come back a grade lower than expected. Next time, most went up. It's certainly a crapshoot. And because you can't sell the coin for the right money without the PCGS or NGC seal of approval, you have to play the game or consign your raw coins to a "competitive" auction and take your chances. Unfortunately I don't see any solution to the
flavor of the month grading systems.
roadrunner
I decided to check my submissions over the last eight months and I'm almost embarrassed to post the results but here we go.
Regrades: 1 for 71 including my entire Indian set at the NYC ANA.
The only coin that upgraded was my 1895 Indian that went from a 65RB to a 66RD. And why it was a 65RB was a mystery.
Crossovers: 0 for 48
0 for 5 to crossover at one grade lower.
The last five were all Dahlonega and it seemed as if they didn't even bother to look and see that I wanted them crossed at one grade lower. That submission came back a week before two other submissions sent at the same time and same service level.
I wrote to Rick about those submissions but obvoiusly he had other things on his mind and never bothered to respond.
Does PCGS wonder why we are getting tired of their grading policies?
Joshua
Sell me that 1858 SL proof before it comes back in a Body Bag!!
Tim
happy, yes