Deep cam Question on Franklin........

BIGDAVE · February 9, 2003 10:36PM

I scanded them both at the same time so no funny stuff,are they both deep cameo's or cameo's and what is your reason.

MadMarty · February 9, 2003 10:43PM

I'm glad I had a drool rag over my keyboard.. Nice coins.. I'm sure when Lucy get's on line, she will have something to say about these!!!

LucyBop · February 9, 2003 10:50PM

Its always hard to tell from a photo as to whether they are DCAM, I cannot judge how deep the mirrors are. Both coins appear to have
enough frost in the devices to warrant the DCAM designation... From what I see, I'll lean towards DCAM....

CarlWohlforth · February 9, 2003 11:15PM

They both look nice to me! The '62 might have slightly more frost to my eye. The '55 has that nice album toning at the rim. I have no reason to disagree with Lucy.

BIGDAVE · February 9, 2003 11:20PM

Lucy both are clean mirrors no frost in the fields, i got the 1962 pcgs pr67 dcam, to see just what a deep cam was ,then i said oh sh$t, my 1955 ngc pr68 cameo is the same as that,heck my 1957 ngc pr68 cam has more frost than the pcgs,

LucyBop · February 9, 2003 11:31PM

<< <i>Lucy both are clean mirrors >>

Clean mirrors is one thing but deep mirrors is another... This isn't easy to explain, on my DCAMs Franklin has a double to triple reflection of his face in the mirrors of the coin... Also, PCGs looks for a black and white type contrast in their DCAMs...

Here is a stunning Black & White Gem!

BIGDAVE · February 9, 2003 11:43PM

my 1962 pcgs pr67 deep cameo does not look like That

BIGDAVE · February 9, 2003 11:47PM

lucy take a real picture of the coin and show me , under normal 100 watt light

coinrookie · February 9, 2003 11:52PM

Lucy is right. Deep mirrors are totally different than clean mirrors. Alot of people are fooled by a coin with heavy frost and "clean" fields. I have some proof coins that have heavy frost but not truly deep mirrors. Hence a Cam designation. But I also have some that have the silvery white frost (not caked on white frost) but have deep black mirrors and are designated Deep Cameo. You are truly lucky when you get a coin with heavy frost and deep mirrors. The frost level on your coins looks great, but from the scan it is hard to tell about depth of the mirrors. But they sure are nice.

LucyBop · February 9, 2003 11:57PM

Here is a scan of my home made 56 DCAM. And trust me, scans of Proofs really suck. However, you can see some reflection in the mirrors
of Frankins face, this is a deep mirrored coin. Also, this GEM has a black and white contrast as well.... This coin also has more frost that
the scan seems to have lost for whatever reason.... I found this GEM in a proof set....

BIGDAVE · February 10, 2003 12:11AM

this is also toned light gold on the obv and dark around edges, and my camera sucks

LucyBop · February 10, 2003 12:27AM

This Frankie is currently in for grading..... I am hoping for a DCAM on this strong mirrored
black and white coin.......

BIGDAVE · February 10, 2003 12:49AM

obv

BIGDAVE · February 10, 2003 12:52AM

rev ,this is a different coin than the one i was asking about cam or dcam

DCAMFranklin · February 10, 2003 3:30AM

I'll second a lot of what has already been said. It is the depth of the mirrors you are trying to determine and that is very tough in a scan/pic.

In addition, you can take a DCAM, hold it at arm's length and the mirrors will what I call "black out". No light, no reflection, just frosted devices in a black pool. And you can tilt your head a few degrees or tilt the coin a few degrees any direction and the mirrors will remain "blacked out". Do the same thing with a mid-range Cameo and the mirrors will never "black out". Do this with a very high end, 10 on the scale of Cameo, coin and the mirrors will "black out" at juuuusst the right angle. However, if you move the coin just a bit, or move your head just a bit, bam the mirrors light up with tons of reflectivity.

You can find Cameo and DCAM coins that have toned in the holder. Yet, I have been assured on many occasions that coins such as yours will never find their way into a DCAM holder.

BIGDAVE · February 10, 2003 3:55AM

DCAMFranklin

i held the 1962 pcgs pr67 dcam at arms length the mirrors blacked out , then i tilted it and you can see my reflection.......the 1957 ngc pr68 cam i did the same and it stays blacked out. the 1955 ngc pr68 cam blacks out but when you tilt it the gold tone shines .

so now i am more confused than before is pcgs wrong? is the example i baught not a deep cameo?

Cam40 · February 10, 2003 4:05AM

I say your `55 is Cameo ,but not Deep Cameo.
Like Lucys` first `62 there,when you see a DCAM Frankie,you know it.
Really frosty devices and deep mirrors.
Isnt it the contrast they look for too?Not just mirror depth?
And the devices must be fairly frosty do they not?
Thats what I think of when I think of a DCAM Frank.Real frosty over clean mirror fields.
JMO

Cam40 · February 10, 2003 4:07AM

Also, PCGs looks for a black and white type contrast in their DCAMs...
Sorry Luce,Just read that.

DCAMFranklin · February 10, 2003 6:51AM

BIGDAVE- I know you and I will tend to disagree on this point. Yet, I'll go ahead and say that I have found PCGS' standard for Cameo and DCAM to be higher than that at NGC. I don't make that statement as the result of a few coins or a couple of coin crackout. I make that statement as the result of viewing hundreds and hundreds of the coins. I've seen plenty of coins in the PCGS Cameo holder that were marginal or undeserving of the designation. The same with DCAM. However, the number of coins in the NGC holder with the Cameo grade that just don't deserve the Cameo designation is many, many times greater than that of PCGS. Though not nearly as large a number, the same can be said for UCAM. There are far more coins in the UCAM holder undeserving of the grade than can be found in the PCGS DCAM holder.

The last couple of months have been far more difficult at NGC. Without question, the standard at NGC has been raised. I find that '55 very attractive, yet I just don't see either service putting that kind of toning in a DCAM/UCAM holder. Sorry.....

BIGDAVE · February 10, 2003 7:48AM

dcamfranklin
i did your test and i agree with you the 1955 , and the 1962 that is in a pcgs dcam holder both failed your test, but the 1957 passed your test you can see the scans in the Ohhhhhh lucy thread, why would i get upset it is just a coin.. I do this to keep Myself from going crazy during the winter I am the MAYTAG Repairman out here......

Cam40 · February 10, 2003 8:14AM

Hehe. Yeeee Hawwww.
In LucyBop speak its ` Be Bop A Lula`

Gilbert · February 10, 2003 9:32AM

BigDave,

Do you have PCGSs grading guide? PCGS definition "Proofs ... that have deep, unbroken frosted devices on both the obverse and reverse. There will be a strong contrast between the mirrored fields and frosty devices. If the major devices have any frost fade or recessed areas where there is diminished frost or even tiny areas of "brilliance," the coin will not attain DCAM status."

Although a black and white cameo contrast is desirable and indicative of first strikes, it is not required for a coin to be designated DCAM -- it is based on frosted devices and how they contrast the mirrored fields. Now, before anyone blows a gasket, how many DCAM proof gold or copper coins display a black and white contrast?

It sounds like folks are merging the requirements for a deep mirror proof-like (exclusive to Morgan dollars) and deep cameo.

I'll agree that a black and white contrast will most times be DCAM, but DCAM does not have to be a black and white contrast.

LucyBop · February 10, 2003 11:27PM

A black and white contrast is a strong indicator of a DCAM and I believe based on personal submissions to be very influential to PCGs... Also, even though they may state no frost breaks that is not 100% followed by them. In my 56 there are frost breaks on the three wisps of hair and also on the highpoint hair on Frankies shoulder...... I don't know why but I have personally seen atleast 20 DCAM 56 Frankies and the majority of this year all suffered from the same frost breaks..... So for anyone whom may be seeking Raw Frankies and you do encounter a solid coin that may have some small frost breaks, I'll say if the price is low enough, snatch it up... No one here was ever refering to gold coins..... The cameo silver coins of the 50s and 60s whether they be halfs, quarters, dimes can have a AWESOME black and white contrast..... The astute collector will seek this type of Gems!

greghansen · February 11, 2003 12:05AM

I agree with what DCAMFranklin said in its entirety.

coinrookie · February 11, 2003 2:11AM

Yep DC can have frost breaks. Yes PCGS does want a black and white contrast. But the degree of white is held to a lesser standard than the black rich depth of the mirrors in my opinion.

Gilbert · February 11, 2003 9:46PM

Now, now Lucy,

We know nothing, especially when it comes to grading, is ever 100% all the time, but I don't think I misquoted PCGSs requirements for DCAM. And I grant you no one mentioned gold coins; I addressed the DCAM designation regardless of the metal type to make the point that B&W contrast, although desirable, is not a prereq since the DCAM designation is not exclusive to Franklin halves or silver coins in general. It wasn't my intention to dispute anything you guys said; only to clarify what I thought was a less than complete description of the designation.

As far as the '56 half goes; well, it is a unique animal anyway. Even Tomaska acknowledges the state of the die and the frost it imparted was less than just about every other Franklin proof issue (this from the '50 - 70's Proof Coinage pub).

I cannot disagree that some coins with frost breaks are designated DCAM, but some are also designated that are not B&W contrast. Really, guys I don't think we are at odds on this. I only quoted the PCGS para in case BigDave hadn't read it before. Sure, I like to know peoples opinion, but I also like to know what's in writing too.

greghansen · February 12, 2003 4:49AM

Finally got some free web hosting...here's my '55 PCGS PR68CAM for comparison:

And for a comparison of cameo to deep cameo...here's my '56 PCGS PR69DCAM:

This is kind of a test message....to see if my picture host service is working.

LucyBop · February 12, 2003 7:32AM

<< <i>but some are also designated that are not B&W contrast. >>

Well, I never said it has to have a black and white contrast or it will never get a DCAM. Let me try to be clearer as some obviously don't understand. The Black and White Contrast is a diffinate plus in your favor as to finding a DCAM Frankie. Sure not all have this look, but the Obvious knock you out jaw dropping DCAMs that I have seen and own have this type of contrast to them....... I try to find DCAM Frankies that are going to be very convincing to PCGs... As far as borderline ones, I'll pick those up only if the price is in my favor.... And no one ever said you misquoted PCGs either, but to bring up gold coins to try to prove your point had nothing to do with the discussion of Franklin Half DCAMs.... PCGs does clearly state no frost breaks which I have mentioned in many a threads that have been addressed to me asking this question, however, as I said, many of the DCAMs they have graded do have some breaks and even some weakness in the frost contrary to what they have written.

LucyBop · February 12, 2003 7:33AM

btw Mr. Hansen, those two lovely GEMS look like those jaw dropping stunners that I love!!!!!!! Nice grades on them!

relayer · February 12, 2003 8:03AM

They've got seafoam green color. Sell 'em at a high premium based on those scans.

LucyBop · February 12, 2003 8:05AM

Also Greg, I can see the typical frost breaks in your 56 pr 69. In the wisps of hair to the right of the ear and also in the thicker hair strand (high point) on Frankies shoulder...

CYBERKEN · February 12, 2003 11:27AM

What's the best light angle for judging this? I have some old singles and sets, and am in the process of submitting the Franklins and cents. I have been examining them under light from two angles at once, and just getting a headache from my spyglass.

Some of the Frankies are brilliant with little frost, some spotted, some toned from the blue mint package. Some seem cameo, some don't-hard to tell.

LucyBop · February 12, 2003 11:30AM

I view them from all angles.... Especially to try and find hairlines which can hide if you don't rotate the coin at different angles while viewing......

CYBERKEN · February 12, 2003 11:48AM

I have noticed the occasional hairline by doing the same thing-rotating them around.

The first 4 I sent in should be back soon, and I have to choose the next load. Eventually, I'll have all 19 slabbed. Scooped them up at a local shop in '79 when everybody was going crazy over other stuff. After almost a quarter century, proof Franklins seem to be coming into their own. The only one I ever had slabbed was many years ago-NCG. It was returned as PR 65, "90% white, cam rev". The standards are completely different today, it seems...

CYBERKEN · February 12, 2003 11:51AM

Correction to last post: The coin slabbed years ago was PCI...

ultimatecameo · February 12, 2003 12:02PM

Lucy -

Is that a 283 chevy small block? 327? 350? FI?

DCAMFranklin · February 16, 2003 6:00AM

<< <i>

This Frankie is currently in for grading..... I am hoping for a DCAM on this strong mirrored
black and white coin....... >>

Lucy- I really wanted to hear your expected grade on this '62 Franklin and to get the invoice number. Then, as I go to make this post, and it shows the images are stored on Russ' computer at compucheap.com/coins/misc/lucy/lucy62.jpg.

I'm confused now. Is this coin for which you are expecting a DCAM, your coin? Or is this Russ' coin that showed up on this invoice?

1962 Franklin

Both coins are 1962 Franklins. You state you anticipated a DCAM on both of them. Were you expecting a PR-64 DCAM? Help to clarify, please.

LucyBop · February 16, 2003 6:02AM

I was hoping for a pr66... It is my coin... I had the DCAM nailed but some nasty hairlines killed me as Russ correctly pointed out in our debate of what this coin would grade. I bought it in Arizona for seven dollars and I saw that it had problems, but I can't pass up a DCAM for seven dollars......

DCAMFranklin · February 16, 2003 6:13AM

<< <i>I was hoping for a pr66... It is my coin... I had the DCAM nailed but some nasty hairlines killed me as Russ correctly pointed out in our debate of what this coin would grade. I bought it in Arizona for seven dollars and I saw that it had problems, but I can't pass up a DCAM for seven dollars...... >>

So, the coin went in on Russ' invoice? Nice coin for $7, though after the grading fees, S&H and insurance it is just a coin to enjoy not to sell for a profit.

LucyBop · February 16, 2003 6:19AM

yep, its hairlined but its a beauty.... and I still say a very nice find......... a welcomed addition to the HepKitty collection!

DCAMFranklin · February 16, 2003 7:45AM

Hey Lucy, you have been talking about acquiring a number of raw FBL Franklins. Do you plan to submit them on your own invoice? When do they go to PCGS?

LucyBop · February 16, 2003 7:52AM

I have some killer GEMS that I feel very strong about.... I have been very lazy on submitted them as lately I was in a comic book buying stage..... Time to focus on my Franklins and my Registry set....

Deep cam Question on Franklin........

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